Parenting - Sheltering vs Exposure

BrisketBoss

Sun, Nov 21 2021, 4:09 pm

amother [ Valerian ] wrote:

Really now? When a child wants to say their behind and they say the place where I sit or refer to the private area and say the place that makes or the place you are not allowed to ever touch, the adult doesn't know what the child is talking about?

And that leads us to another problem--I shouldn't have said the problem, my bad. Those names are shrouded in secrecy and shame. They can lead the child to pick up on these terms and places as something their parents are awkward talking about and then the child will feel nervous/awkward talking about them too. Whether it's asking their doctor questions, reporting abuse to a parent...predators are also more likely to pick on kids in the first place who aren't confident in their bodies and positive body knowledge.

Are children really saying 'the place you are not allowed to ever touch?' That concerns me on several levels.

amother

Aconite

Sun, Nov 21 2021, 4:10 pm

How often do you hear children say that their parents exposed them to too much?

Last edited by amother on Sat, Dec 18 2021, 10:44 pm; edited 1 time in total

amother

Valerian

Sun, Nov 21 2021, 4:12 pm

BrisketBoss wrote:

We teach our boys they are never allowed to touch there. So if my toddler has a rash and I ask where it hurts he will say where you are not allowed to touch. What is concerning about that? That's what it is.

amother

Camellia

Sun, Nov 21 2021, 4:13 pm

amother [ Valerian ] wrote:

Creating such an environment makes it scary for children to come tell you if there’s a problem. They might feel like if someone touched them there etc ch”v, that makes them guilty, and they can’t let you know.

amother

Arcticblue

Sun, Nov 21 2021, 4:14 pm

amother [ Valerian ] wrote:

Just curious - what is problem with naming the "where you are not allowed to touch"?

amother

Valerian

Sun, Nov 21 2021, 4:14 pm

amother [ Camellia ] wrote:

So you create an environment where your children know they can tell you anything. That's two separate things.

sequoia

Sun, Nov 21 2021, 4:15 pm

amother [ Valerian ] wrote:

....

*incoherent screaming*

PLEASE teach them the correct name. P-nis.

Also, don’t boys have to hold it to aim when they pee?

amother

Camellia

Sun, Nov 21 2021, 4:16 pm

amother [ Valerian ] wrote:

So you create an environment where your children know they can tell you anything. That's two separate things.

It’s not. If you are saying “you can’t touch it, or name it” automatically guilt and shame and secrecy is associated with it.

Rubies

Sun, Nov 21 2021, 4:18 pm

amother [ Camellia ] wrote:

Both.

Not using the name is part of a culture where kids might not be aware what’s ok and what’s not ok, as well as more hesitancy to tell their parents about anything going on.

If a problem doesn’t have a name, it’s not a problem, right?

No it isn't and I wonder if you've grown up in a healthy family within the community or these are your assumptions.

Healthy awareness, body safety, and everything can be taught without using certain words. That doesn't mean no words should be used.
What you're saying is like private parts are shameful for we don't walk around without them being appropriately covered. It's not shameful it's private. We can teach both.

We don't need to look further than the Torah for clean speech. Awareness but clean speech nonetheless.
One can use any word to reference any part and you can also teach the correct words but I don't think that is the true issue behind abuse at all.

amother

Valerian

Sun, Nov 21 2021, 4:21 pm

amother [ Camellia ] wrote:

It’s not. If you are saying “you can’t touch it, or name it” automatically guilt and shame and secrecy is associated with it.

I don't agree. You can also teach a child in an age appropriate way to come and speak to you about it.
"Some children are still babies and don't know not to touch there. They pull down pants. But you are big and good and strong and can say no. No matter what you can always come tell mommy."
I've specifically asked how to teach children body safety so I feel confident with what I've been told but to explain everything would take too many paragraphs.
And listening to them talk about whatever other things in their life, even if not important, teaches them they can come to you with anything.

Rubies

Sun, Nov 21 2021, 4:25 pm

amother [ Camellia ] wrote:

It’s not. If you are saying “you can’t touch it, or name it” automatically guilt and shame and secrecy is associated with it.

You can touch it and name it. Who says you can't? You just don't NEED to call it pen's or vag. As long as you can communicate and there is no shame I think people are hung up on the wrong issue.

Rubies

Sun, Nov 21 2021, 4:28 pm

sequoia wrote:

....

*incoherent screaming*

PLEASE teach them the correct name. P-nis.

Also, don’t boys have to hold it to aim when they pee?

What's wrong with a name in another language that references the same thing? It's language and communication not the English word that's necessary.

amother

Camellia

Sun, Nov 21 2021, 4:28 pm

Rubies wrote:

You can touch it and name it. Who says you can't? You just don't NEED to call it pen's or vag. As long as you can communicate and there is no shame I think people are hung up on the wrong issue.

I was responding to the poster who said she her children call their pnis “the place I can’t touch.”

Listen, All I know is the facts on the ground, which are that prominent mental health professionals in the frum community have said it’s a larger problem in chassidish communities, and I encounter this issue more frequently among chassidish clients (usually a brother touching his sister) than non chassidish. My purpose in saying this is simply for op to be aware of the challenges and educate accordingly. Sometimes being too sheltered is a problem.

BrisketBoss

Sun, Nov 21 2021, 4:31 pm

Rubies wrote:

You can touch it and name it. Who says you can't? You just don't NEED to call it pen's or vag. As long as you can communicate and there is no shame I think people are hung up on the wrong issue.

What would be the impediment to calling it that, though? Embarrassment?

My mother-in-law is not really Chassidish but has many Chassidish customs. I got used to her saying 'p-nis' around me sometimes when talking to her young boys. It's part of parenting now. We've figured out that this is the best thing to do.

amother

Valerian

Sun, Nov 21 2021, 4:32 pm

amother [ Camellia ] wrote:

This isn't reliable data. For all you know it means chassidishe parents are more likely to seek out help foe their children or you live in an area with more chassidish people, etc.
It's hateful what you are saying.

Rubies

Sun, Nov 21 2021, 4:36 pm

amother [ Camellia ] wrote:

I've spoken to mental health professionals too and the problem is the sheltering of awareness and body shame not the words one uses.

Don't mean to be nitty-gritty but I just find it annoying when both concepts are lumped together as if they're one and the same.

amother

Valerian

Sun, Nov 21 2021, 4:37 pm

Rubies wrote:

You can touch it and name it. Who says you can't? You just don't NEED to call it pen's or vag. As long as you can communicate and there is no shame I think people are hung up on the wrong issue.

You're wrong. It is not allowed to ever be touched. If an emergency or for a medical thing you can use a tissue like to put on a clean with a tissue but no its not allowed to be touched. Ask a shaila you'll see.

amother

Sun, Nov 21 2021, 4:37 pm

So basically I'm coming from I guess a considerably open minded home- the body parts etc were named

I just see the secular culture coming into our society via media and it just scares me and I'm wondering maybe the more sheltering mindset is the right way to go...

Obviously within reason, I'd definitely continue calling body parts by their appropriate name - that wasn't the issue 😉...

Just really wanted to proactively parent with drawing the line... exposure vs sheltering

Not sure if I'm making any sense 🤔

BrisketBoss

Sun, Nov 21 2021, 4:37 pm

amother [ Valerian ] wrote:

Wait wait let's get back to the aiming question. Are boys taught to sit or to use a tissue?

amother

Valerian

Sun, Nov 21 2021, 4:39 pm

BrisketBoss wrote:

Wait wait let's get back to the aiming question. Are boys taught to sit or to use a tissue?

Stand and not touch. No tissue just not to touch. Tissue is only for an emergency medical situation ch"v such as needing a catheter for a procedure.