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Alec Baldwin Question for Talmudically Knowledgeable Imas



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Mermaidinexile




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Nov 21 2021, 9:20 pm
In the times of the Beit Hamikdash, would he need (or be allowed) to go to an Ir Miklat?

Please include sources if you have
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iyar




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Nov 21 2021, 9:36 pm
If I say Talmudically knowledgeable imas is an oxymoron I get buried under a heap of tomatoes and I’m the one who needs an ir miklat, right?
(Source: other threads where imas got in trouble)
I will say: Mermaid, that’s a great question!
I’ll move aside now, hopefully you’ll get some real answers.
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Nov 21 2021, 10:11 pm
Mermaidinexile wrote:
In the times of the Beit Hamikdash, would he need (or be allowed) to go to an Ir Miklat?

Please include sources if you have


Why wouldn't he be allowed? Was he warned not to shoot? I would think there would have to be witnesses AND warning. So he probably would have had to go. If this applies to ger toshav, which I assume he would be. I doubt it.
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gold21




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Nov 21 2021, 10:12 pm
There's a difference between Shogeig and Oneis.

In the first, there is some negligence on the part of the killer and in the second there is not. In Oneis, the killer is truly innocent. In Shogeig, less so.

Shogeig goes to Ir Miklat. Oneis gets off scott free.


Last edited by gold21 on Sun, Nov 21 2021, 11:39 pm; edited 1 time in total
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gold21




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Nov 21 2021, 10:13 pm
PinkFridge wrote:
Why wouldn't he be allowed? Was he warned not to shoot? I would think there would have to be witnesses AND warning. So he probably would have had to go. If this applies to ger toshav, which I assume he would be. I doubt it.


Is warning required for punishment in Beis Din for intentional killing?


Last edited by gold21 on Sun, Nov 21 2021, 10:14 pm; edited 1 time in total
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WhatFor




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Nov 21 2021, 10:13 pm
Did non-Jews also go to an ir miklat?
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Nov 21 2021, 10:15 pm
gold21 wrote:
Is warning required for punishment in Beis Din for intentional killing?


I don't know. I do know I'm not Talmudically knowledgeable but still thought I'd jump in Smile
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gold21




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Nov 21 2021, 10:15 pm
WhatFor wrote:
Did non-Jews also go to an ir miklat?


No, I don't believe so.
This would only apply if he were Jewish.
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gold21




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Nov 21 2021, 10:20 pm
PinkFridge wrote:
I don't know. I do know I'm not Talmudically knowledgeable but still thought I'd jump in Smile


My son learned Gemara Makkos last year.
I never learned these laws myself.
But I guess I picked it up.
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gold21




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Nov 21 2021, 10:22 pm
PinkFridge wrote:
I don't know. I do know I'm not Talmudically knowledgeable but still thought I'd jump in Smile


As long as there are witnesses, I do not believe a warning is relevant. I believe that the only place a warning is relevant is in a special case of a person with limited intellect.
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Mermaidinexile




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Nov 21 2021, 10:44 pm
Yes I'm asking with the understanding that the question would apply if he were Jewish obviously. Assuming he was completely unaware it was loaded, would it matter that the shooting was part of a scene? Would it have been different if he were just playing with a gun that he thought was not loaded?

Also, need to go to ir miklat means must go to exile and not scott-free. But it also means able to go and not held responsible to stand trial.
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iyar




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Nov 21 2021, 10:51 pm
… Talmudically knowledgeable imas is not an oxymoron.
Following…
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gold21




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Nov 21 2021, 11:34 pm
Mermaidinexile wrote:
Yes I'm asking with the understanding that the question would apply if he were Jewish obviously. Assuming he was completely unaware it was loaded, would it matter that the shooting was part of a scene? Would it have been different if he were just playing with a gun that he thought was not loaded?

Also, need to go to ir miklat means must go to exile and not scott-free. But it also means able to go and not held responsible to stand trial.


I think the question is if there was any negligence on his part.

I believe there was negligence. This makes the action a Shogeig.

Ir Miklat is not an option is by Meizid, where the killing is intentional. I don't believe this was intentional.

Nor do I believe it was Oneis, an entirely innocent mistake with no blame attributed to the killer. I do attribute some blame to him.

Shogeig goes to Ir Miklat, Meizid stands trial, Oneis gets off scott free.

I don't recall hearing my son cover the self-defense scenario, but I believe it falls under Oneis.

Just my opinion.
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