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My kids are off again today:(
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amother




Obsidian
 

Post Sat, Nov 27 2021, 3:50 pm
.
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amother




OP
 

Post Sat, Nov 27 2021, 4:38 pm
amother [ Peony ] wrote:
So if a sheet is the game-changer here, then make your own sheet. Offer your kids a prize. Or even get together with some like minded parents to co-sponsor a learning program with sheets and prizes. Offer to host a group of boys at your home. Enlist your husband to be the melamed for the day. If this really bothers you and him so much, be the change you wish to see.


Gut voch.
Maybe I wasn't clear or maybe you misunderstood. It's not about the sheet -per se- being a game changer. It is the seemingly overall lackadaisical attitude towards giving days off.

For thousands of years, dedication to limmud Torah was a mainstay of our mesora. At times it required major sacrifice. (Eg chanuka)
And yet, now that we live in times of plenty, it seems that we are not so in tune with those values.

During covid, some schools cancelled "out of abundance of caution". I don't want to get into a debate about Covid, because that isn't my point. My point was simply that in order to cancel Torah learning, there needs to be a very, very serious discussion of whether or not the situation warrants canceling school.
So by Covid all schools agreed that it was necessary. But do we take canceling so seriously when it comes to Veterans day or Black Friday?

And for those who talk about how healthy it is to bond with your children, I'm not sure where that comes in. Families bonding together is amazing, but that is what Shabbos and Yom tov are all about. And we have Sundays, and vacation chanuka and midwinter and summer.. Sure, if there are off days- absolutely, use those days to bond with the kids. But "bonding with the kids" should not be the justification for canceling Torah learning with a rebbe. Otherwise, maybe don't send your kids to school at all...maybe we should all homeschooling our children. There's no better bonding than that.

Bringing in bonding with the kids (despite how rosy that sounds) simply misses my point. I'm talking about an attitude towards missing learning days that (in my experience) is mostly prevalent in OOT. To me, it signifies a lessening of chashivus haTorah. It means placing learning Torah on a lower pedestal than it should be. Call me hard core, but these are the values and attitudes that kids pick up growing up and from their yeshivos.
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amother




Stone
 

Post Sat, Nov 27 2021, 5:20 pm
You said in your OP that boys grade 3 and up had school, only girls and preschool were off. Sounds like chashivus for learning to me. Then you started changing your tune in other posts
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amother




Burntblack
 

Post Sat, Nov 27 2021, 5:45 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
Gut voch.
Maybe I wasn't clear or maybe you misunderstood. It's not about the sheet -per se- being a game changer. It is the seemingly overall lackadaisical attitude towards giving days off.

For thousands of years, dedication to limmud Torah was a mainstay of our mesora. At times it required major sacrifice. (Eg chanuka)
And yet, now that we live in times of plenty, it seems that we are not so in tune with those values.

During covid, some schools cancelled "out of abundance of caution". I don't want to get into a debate about Covid, because that isn't my point. My point was simply that in order to cancel Torah learning, there needs to be a very, very serious discussion of whether or not the situation warrants canceling school.
So by Covid all schools agreed that it was necessary. But do we take canceling so seriously when it comes to Veterans day or Black Friday?

And for those who talk about how healthy it is to bond with your children, I'm not sure where that comes in. Families bonding together is amazing, but that is what Shabbos and Yom tov are all about. And we have Sundays, and vacation chanuka and midwinter and summer.. Sure, if there are off days- absolutely, use those days to bond with the kids. But "bonding with the kids" should not be the justification for canceling Torah learning with a rebbe. Otherwise, maybe don't send your kids to school at all...maybe we should all homeschooling our children. There's no better bonding than that.

Bringing in bonding with the kids (despite how rosy that sounds) simply misses my point. I'm talking about an attitude towards missing learning days that (in my experience) is mostly prevalent in OOT. To me, it signifies a lessening of chashivus haTorah. It means placing learning Torah on a lower pedestal than it should be. Call me hard core, but these are the values and attitudes that kids pick up growing up and from their yeshivos.


A few quick points:
- Days off is all about what works for the school, no other considerations are included.
- Days off doesn't reflect on chashivus HaTorah. Spending time with kids, refreshing oneself, going to necessary appointments, and the like doesn't lessen Chashivus HaTorah. All need to be done, with the varying degrees depending on personal circumstances.
- On Shabbos and YT you're very restricted in what you can do together as a family. Girls and boys have school on Sundays, and parents work during Chanukah, midwinter and summer. Having a mutual day off for everyone is a rare occasionn. So if such a day becomes available, why not maximize its potential.
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amother




DarkRed
 

Post Sat, Nov 27 2021, 5:59 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
I send my kids to a regular yeshiva.. It's oot, but still.
They had half day yesterday, erev Thanksgiving.
Today, the elementary girls and preschool have no school, and the boys only grade 3 and up.

What is this?? In what world is it okay not to have school.on Black Friday??

Not only that, many, many parents don't bother sending their kids to school at all these days. Why?? I can't understand that.
We have a bus chat.
Many parents posted that their boys won't be coming today. I simply can't understand why it's considered an optional day.

I'm not judging. I'm trying to understand.

Do your kids have off today also?

Ps. I don't celebrate Thanksgiving in any way. I understand many people do. But why is ok for a yeshiva, a Torah institution to have half day for a secular/national holiday?


I have to tell you I get disgusted when I see posts like this. “My kids are off today” with a sad face??? Appreciate the bracha you have and stop spitting in G-ds face. Some people don’t have kids and some are going through hell with infertility and treatments, and I sure don’t envy your kids whose mother doesn’t want them home. I’m sure you have already or will transmit your feelings to them and won’t that be awful for their self esteem. You had kids, now you’re responsible to deal with them and all the issues involved.
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amother




Obsidian
 

Post Sat, Nov 27 2021, 6:58 pm
Op, I’m sure you mean well. You are justifying your point of view on the concept of chashivus HaTorah. I think you would do yourself and children a world of good to be a bit more flexible and understanding. I also have a lot of areas of growth that are necessary so please don’t take this the wrong way. You are coming across very rigid and such rigidity isn’t good for Torah, ruchniyis and well balanced children. Much hatzlacha and nachas from your children.
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amother




OP
 

Post Sat, Nov 27 2021, 9:28 pm
amother [ Stone ] wrote:
You said in your OP that boys grade 3 and up had school, only girls and preschool were off. Sounds like chashivus for learning to me. Then you started changing your tune in other posts


On veterans day, the whole school was off, even older boys.
On black Friday it was only grades 3 and up that had no school, while many parents of older boys who dod have school dod not send their kids.
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amother




OP
 

Post Sat, Nov 27 2021, 9:46 pm
amother [ Obsidian ] wrote:
Op, I’m sure you mean well. You are justifying your point of view on the concept of chashivus HaTorah. I think you would do yourself and children a world of good to be a bit more flexible and understanding. I also have a lot of areas of growth that are necessary so please don’t take this the wrong way. You are coming across very rigid and such rigidity isn’t good for Torah, ruchniyis and well balanced children. Much hatzlacha and nachas from your children.


Thank you..I am actually a very easy going and flexible person in most areas. Anyone who knows me thinks of me as super chilled. It could be Im coming across that way, but it makes me smile that you say that, because noone who knows me irl would consider me rigid. It could be that because my husband is very passionate about the importance of making Torah the focal point of your life, that it comes across in my posts. BH my husband lives what he preaches and our children have a strong appreciation for Torah learning.

Living OOT as a "yeshiva " family does create a bit of a situation where we need to at times remember our values. I'm not sure if any of you can relate unless you have had a similar experience of moving from one community to another. At times, the differences are like a breath of fresh air and you feel so grateful to be living in your new community. I actually love so many things about my community. At other times, you feel that there are certain things that are not consistent with your true values.

At times like that, it's easy to say, be more flexible- do what everyone else is doing. And sometimes that's the right way to go.
But other times, it's necessary to be " inflexible" and stay true to your values.

And thanks for the bracha. Amen. And lots of hatzlacha and bracha to you as well in raising your kids.
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amother




OP
 

Post Sat, Nov 27 2021, 9:50 pm
amother [ DarkRed ] wrote:
I have to tell you I get disgusted when I see posts like this. “My kids are off today” with a sad face??? Appreciate the bracha you have and stop spitting in G-ds face. Some people don’t have kids and some are going through hell with infertility and treatments, and I sure don’t envy your kids whose mother doesn’t want them home. I’m sure you have already or will transmit your feelings to them and won’t that be awful for their self esteem. You had kids, now you’re responsible to deal with them and all the issues involved.


You obviously have not read the rest of the thread. I explain clearly what it is I find sad about the off days.
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miami85




 
 
 
 

Post Sat, Nov 27 2021, 9:56 pm
Schools are only required by law to have 180 days and they factor in the fact that teachers want off--they need breaks too. This year many schools are combining Thanksgiving weekend with chanuka vacation so it's one long weekend.

As much as "Torah is important"--but visiting grandparents, is a mitzvah and for many families this is the only opportunity to go away.

I
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amother




Phlox
 

Post Sat, Nov 27 2021, 10:47 pm
Agree that kids need breaks and bonding time with parents, but schools should also consider each year’s calendar when making these decisions.

If Chanukah is 3 days after Thanksgiving and the kids will have off for an extended weekend in just one week, maybe rethink the teachers in service/thanksgiving day off this year?
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amother




Hotpink
 

Post Sat, Nov 27 2021, 10:53 pm
More parents are off on Thanksgiving weekend vs Chanukah so actually it makes sense to give off Thanksgiving.
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amother




Stoneblue
 

Post Sat, Nov 27 2021, 11:05 pm
Not only are parents off from work (for the most part), if you have secular or non-Jewish bus drivers or other school workers, they will expect the holiday off as well.
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Hashem_Yaazor




 
 
 
 

Post Sun, Nov 28 2021, 5:19 am
Some localities have a law that schools must close for Veterans Day.
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amother




Wallflower
 

Post Sun, Nov 28 2021, 6:46 am
amother [ DarkRed ] wrote:
I have to tell you I get disgusted when I see posts like this. “My kids are off today” with a sad face??? Appreciate the bracha you have and stop spitting in G-ds face. Some people don’t have kids and some are going through hell with infertility and treatments, and I sure don’t envy your kids whose mother doesn’t want them home. I’m sure you have already or will transmit your feelings to them and won’t that be awful for their self esteem. You had kids, now you’re responsible to deal with them and all the issues involved.

I’m assuming this comes from a place of pain but still inappropriate.
If someone complained that they have no shoes you can’t start yelling that they’re ungrateful because thank god they have healthy feet while some others don’t.
It’s very frustrating to have kids off on what’s supposed to be a regular school day while you work (or even if you don’t) and since we are Jewish it’s double frustrating that the reason for off days are secular holidays.
It doesn’t mean we don’t appreciate our kids or take them for granted. It means that if we pay to send them to school we expect them to have school on holidays that are not ones we celebrate!
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amother




Obsidian
 

Post Sun, Nov 28 2021, 7:13 am
amother [ OP ] wrote:
Thank you..I am actually a very easy going and flexible person in most areas. Anyone who knows me thinks of me as super chilled. It could be Im coming across that way, but it makes me smile that you say that, because noone who knows me irl would consider me rigid. It could be that because my husband is very passionate about the importance of making Torah the focal point of your life, that it comes across in my posts. BH my husband lives what he preaches and our children have a strong appreciation for Torah learning.

Living OOT as a "yeshiva " family does create a bit of a situation where we need to at times remember our values. I'm not sure if any of you can relate unless you have had a similar experience of moving from one community to another. At times, the differences are like a breath of fresh air and you feel so grateful to be living in your new community. I actually love so many things about my community. At other times, you feel that there are certain things that are not consistent with your true values.

At times like that, it's easy to say, be more flexible- do what everyone else is doing. And sometimes that's the right way to go.
But other times, it's necessary to be " inflexible" and stay true to your values.

And thanks for the bracha. Amen. And lots of hatzlacha and bracha to you as well in raising your kids.

Op, I think because you are influenced by your husband you aren’t able to see the other side of the picture. In every post you keep on reiterating your point of view but you aren’t listening to what most posters are telling you. ( which we all do btw, myself very much included:)
It isn’t a higher moral value of chashivus HaTorah to send kids to school every day. Either way, you should enjoy the other benefits of living OOT and have a lichtige chanukah!
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amother




Tealblue
 

Post Sun, Nov 28 2021, 7:28 am
amother [ OP ] wrote:
Gut voch.
Maybe I wasn't clear or maybe you misunderstood. It's not about the sheet -per se- being a game changer. It is the seemingly overall lackadaisical attitude towards giving days off.

For thousands of years, dedication to limmud Torah was a mainstay of our mesora. At times it required major sacrifice. (Eg chanuka)
And yet, now that we live in times of plenty, it seems that we are not so in tune with those values.

During covid, some schools cancelled "out of abundance of caution". I don't want to get into a debate about Covid, because that isn't my point. My point was simply that in order to cancel Torah learning, there needs to be a very, very serious discussion of whether or not the situation warrants canceling school.
So by Covid all schools agreed that it was necessary. But do we take canceling so seriously when it comes to Veterans day or Black Friday?

And for those who talk about how healthy it is to bond with your children, I'm not sure where that comes in. Families bonding together is amazing, but that is what Shabbos and Yom tov are all about. And we have Sundays, and vacation chanuka and midwinter and summer.. Sure, if there are off days- absolutely, use those days to bond with the kids. But "bonding with the kids" should not be the justification for canceling Torah learning with a rebbe. Otherwise, maybe don't send your kids to school at all...maybe we should all homeschooling our children. There's no better bonding than that.

Bringing in bonding with the kids (despite how rosy that sounds) simply misses my point. I'm talking about an attitude towards missing learning days that (in my experience) is mostly prevalent in OOT. To me, it signifies a lessening of chashivus haTorah. It means placing learning Torah on a lower pedestal than it should be. Call me hard core, but these are the values and attitudes that kids pick up growing up and from their yeshivos.


I guess it's due to parents like you that my kid has school every day possible. And no, this only makes kids resent learning. Wow. I thought it was only the hanhala who is so detached from reality but I guess I was wrong.
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amother




Hotpink
 

Post Sun, Nov 28 2021, 7:34 am
amother [ Wallflower ] wrote:
I’m assuming this comes from a place of pain but still inappropriate.
If someone complained that they have no shoes you can’t start yelling that they’re ungrateful because thank god they have healthy feet while some others don’t.
It’s very frustrating to have kids off on what’s supposed to be a regular school day while you work (or even if you don’t) and since we are Jewish it’s double frustrating that the reason for off days are secular holidays.
It doesn’t mean we don’t appreciate our kids or take them for granted. It means that if we pay to send them to school we expect them to have school on holidays that are not ones we celebrate!

Is it really necessary to post such a harsh response to someone clearly in deep pain?
Be kind. Let it go.
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amother




Petunia
 

Post Sun, Nov 28 2021, 4:25 pm
I'm OOT and JPF. To me, the OPs post is sad and a bit offensive. But I'm probably the kind of person that makes OP feel like she needs to be inflexible and rigid when she moves to a community like mine.

Lots of Americans celebrate Thanksgiving, including some frum families and communities (like ours). It's the norm in our community, and if someone doesn't want to celebrate, that's fine - but it's pretty off-putting when someone prances in and tells us we're somehow being anti-Torah or anti-Jewish for doing things differently. I'm so glad my kids are able to be home for the day and enjoy the lovely Thanksgiving meal we have with friends and family! Getting the Friday off has never bothered me either - it's not like they're getting off for Black Friday so they can be first in line to buy discount toasters- but it's a Thursday holiday so I'm not sure how much learning takes place on a half day Friday. Not to mention all the logistical issues around staffing, transportation, and logistics that other posters have mentioned since many other people have (or will take) this day off too.

And honestly I don't get the ire for Veterans Day either, since that's also a holiday that's meaningful for us. I had a grandfather fight for the US in WW2 and two uncles fight in Vietnam, so growing up, my parents made sure we observed this day and gave thanks for their and others' service. This year my kids made cards for a WW2 vet who lives down the street from us, and he was so touched when we brought them over. It turns out he had actually liberated one of the camps - he and my older DD had a wonderful conversation about this that left them both in tears. Honestly, this country has been pretty good for us as Jews, and I think it's great to take a day to acknowledge some of the men and women in uniform who've made that possible.

Bottom line, Orthodox Judaism is a big tent, even big enough to accommodate people who find Thanksgiving and Veterans Day meaningful.

Finally -and I'm not directing this at OP specifically, since I don't know her circumstances - it's incredibly obnoxious when kollel couples or people moving here to work in chinuch take the attitude that OOT communities are full of backwards and ignorant yokels who need to be taught "true" Torah Judaism. You're just going to alienate people with an attitude like this. Sure, we have things to learn from you. But chances are there are also things you can learn from us.
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amother




Amber
 

Post Mon, Nov 29 2021, 8:27 am
amother [ OP ] wrote:
On veterans day, the whole school was off, even older boys.
On black Friday it was only grades 3 and up that had no school, while many parents of older boys who dod have school dod not send their kids.


I think I guessed where you live and I think you are being a bit unfair to the school.

Veterans Day is off because it's a teacher education day that the school is required to have during the school year. They chose to do it on a legal holiday because many parents are off anyway so it's easier on the parents than a regular day.
Thanksgiving was a half day for everyone, even preschool. That's not even so common in other OOT day schools, very often they give off the whole day Thanksgiving. But we didn't out of chashivus for Torah learning in the morning and to show that the school doesn't hold so much value to the secular holiday. Also, the Middle School had a father and son learning thing with the high school, to show that when fathers have a day off of work it's nice for them to come and learn (with their children).

Black Friday is a bit of a question to me why the school is off, but regarding the learning aspect, they did make school for anyone who has school on Sunday, so they are showing that those who are supposed to be making learning a priority should be going to school today. Why it starts at 3rd grade only is a long standing debate based on the history of the school before the current administration took over, and I believe you know that there are being changes made in that area...(there is optional Sunday school for boys in grades first and second.)

Regarding other families who choose not to send, that's not really our business and has nothing to do with the school itself. Families have all different reasons and are coming from a lot of different places, and it's really hard to judge that if we aren't in their shoes. I know attendance on Sunday has been somewhat of an issue in this school in general, and the school is working hard on encouraging full Sunday mandatory attendance for a grades three and up. But I do know some mothers who have to literally fight with or bribe their sons to go to school when the rest of the family is home it's not so simple for everyone. And some families were away this weekend, and some families are enjoying the very rare occasion where both parents are off of work and want to spend family time, you really don't know what's going on in their homes...
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