OTD in Insular Communities

amother

Sun, Nov 28 2021, 5:48 am

This is for a close relative.
They live in a very insular/heimish/chassidish community.
Their 13 year old son wants to wear jeans and have an iphone.
They didn't allow it, so he bought them himself. He said he had money from working but it seems he stole it from them. But their main issue at the moment is that he has them.
He was away at a relative's home, and they said he can only come back home if he dresses like expected and gets rid of the phone. I think also going to minyan and the like were on their list of requirements. Otherwise they'll have him stay there or by another relative.
If you or someone you know is in a similar situation, what did you/they do? I'm wondering what others may "budge" on. He is almost definitely not shomer shabbos at the moment, but it seems he tries to fake it to some extent when in view of others. They do have other young children home, which is at least part of the reason for their position. They are also not the most welcomed in the community already, which is very likely another part of the reason. Any ideas and experience welcome. Thanks!

amother

Lemonlime

Sun, Nov 28 2021, 7:31 am

These posts are very triggering for me as a formerly rebellious teen myself. As a parent, my child ALWAYS comes first no matter what. The fact that so many people care more about what the community thinks or the effect on their other kids and give up on a child that THEY created themselves is so horribly sick. You can't just throw away a child who doesn't turn out the way your community wants them to. If they want to kick the child out and show them that their love and acceptance is conditional on being religious, then they never loved that child.

amother

Snowdrop

Sun, Nov 28 2021, 8:19 am

I remember when my daughter started dressing not tsnius. My mom would ask me how I am letting her out of the house like that. And I would tell her as long as my daughter is living at home, I have some control. Not a lot but at least I know where she is. The minute I would start making her crazy and she moves out, who knows how far she would go.
And today, 5 years later, my daughter is a stable kid. Still doesn’t dress tsnius, but is normal.

amother

Teal

Sun, Nov 28 2021, 8:27 am

The fact that you mentioned jeans and an iPhone before stealing and being mechallel shabbos makes me wonder about the family's priorities. It matters that the son keeps mitzvos, not whether he adheres to (arbitrary) community norms.

Parents who care about the child first and the family image later usually see better results. I wish them great strength and sensitivity.

amother

Black

Sun, Nov 28 2021, 8:50 am

They can contact Gedaliah Miller of Kesher Nafshi. He's a chassidish man whose dd went OTD. He started this organization to help others in the same position. Because he's chassidish he can really understand where they're coming from.

He was featured in Mishpacha magazine a couple of months ago.

amother

Coffee

Sun, Nov 28 2021, 9:06 am

amother [ Black ] wrote:

This is the organization I was talking about he’s amazing!!!!!

tp3

Sun, Nov 28 2021, 9:11 am

Sad to hear this still goes on. A child's status is not dependent on his frumkeit. Just like Hashem gives us a fresh new day every day and trusts us to do better than yesterday even if I don't and am far from perfect.
We cannot continue to create tiny holes of conformity and our children are not pegs.

amother

Black

Sun, Nov 28 2021, 9:18 am

amother [ Chambray ] wrote:

In a situation like that the parents have no choice but to kick out the child and find other accommodations for them with another family. The other children in the home come first. But they need a rav who understands to this.

ABSOLUTELY NOT TRUE! Which is why they need to speak to specialists, not you. I have a child who is OTD and I've spoken to many specialists and rabbonim and listened to many more speeches. Not one recommended throwing out a child, except under severe instances.

Op, please have them speak to Gedalia Miller. I'm not chassidish so the specialists I speak to are also not chassidish. But I heard him speak and he's incredible.

amother

Pumpkin

Sun, Nov 28 2021, 9:23 am

amother [ Chambray ] wrote:

This way of thinking went out of style about twenty years ago. Now we do better and are more effective at keeping our kids close.

amother

Sun, Nov 28 2021, 9:26 am

amother [ Teal ] wrote:

Thank you everyone for the different perspectives. I will suggest the organizations you mentioned to them. As for the post above, it's not necessarily about their priorities. The stealing and being mechallel Shabbos he won't admit... so it's a more difficult condition to deal with. The phone and jeans are out in the open, so they can discuss them to some degree and they also affect the other children more.

amother

Dandelion

Sun, Nov 28 2021, 9:27 am

amother [ Chambray ] wrote:

Oy va voy. No. Just no.

amother

Vermilion

Sun, Nov 28 2021, 9:28 am

amother [ Chambray ] wrote:

This is not a given. Never do such a thing before consulting professionals who might have better guidance and suggestions for how to keep them home without damaging the other kids.

amother

Apricot

Sun, Nov 28 2021, 9:32 am

amother [ Chambray ] wrote:

Kicking the child out does not save the other kids, it makes them realize that the parents’ love is extremely conditional and limited. It damages the other kids far more than keeping him home does (assuming the OTD child is not violent or abusive to his siblings, in which case one must be more creative).

amother

Powderblue

Sun, Nov 28 2021, 9:46 am

Having a son who had been semi OTD for a while I can't say without being in their situation and knowing more details

For those who are so shocked at the parents let me say that wearing jeans per se may not be a major issue but if he is wearing them to spite his parents and show who is boss around the house I understand where they are coming from. An IPhone is even worse. My son himself blamed people he met online for his period of going OTD at the time. Even today when he is B'H frum again he strongly feels that the online community, particularly the OTD online community was terribly destructive to him. Both on a religious AND emotional level. Therefore, I see the parents' insistence on no Iphone.

But what leverage do they have over someone who is looking for and relishes winning another fight with his parents? Then after the parents lose that fight (because they have to give unconditional love and support) he will get bored and start a new one. And then what? I don't think it is so simple under such circumstances to not consider sending him away, at least temporally, if they have a place to send him to.

In our case we had two personal rules (1) we absolutely won't fight over anything that doesn't violate halacha (like wearing jeans) and (2) if we were going to lose the fight anyway, we will pretend not to know. Otherwise, we will just try to work on a compromise. We were furious when DS bought a smartphone but when we realized he was going to keep it anyway we gave in and told him that we will pay for the smartphone service on the condition that he puts Gentech or some other filter on it. Ultimately, he agreed.

amother

Valerian

Sun, Nov 28 2021, 9:47 am

amother [ Chambray ] wrote:

Oh my gosh. Do people still think like this????

I'm Chassidish in a Chassidish community. My best friend has a child that's OTD. She's really Chassidish, double covered, the works. She loves and accepts the child for who it is. It's not easy for her but she will never ever ever put the community over her child, ever!
And the other children are not affected, on the contrary they accept and love him too and don't make a big deal. She's dealing with professionals and is following their advice and her child is a stable good child.
I also think that the mentality is changing in the community. That's why I am shocked at the above suggestion. I think people are having awareness that keeping a child home is the way to go and they wonder when someone actually sends a child packing. It's not the acceptable thing to do any more.

amother

Sun, Nov 28 2021, 1:21 pm

Well this child did also have some angry/abusive tendencies last time he was home (along with the stealing issues). Not sure which came first, but the anger and OTD seem to feed off each other. So there is definitely more there than just OTD, which is making it a trickier situation to deal with. That's why I was shocked by their "no jeans or phone" rules, which to me don't seem nearly as significant. But like someone else pointed out, they may be symbolic of his anger and rebellion more than the issues themselves. Again, thanks everyone, I hope to be able to share some insights with them.