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My 5 year old never cleans up-update pg 6
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amother
Jasmine


 

Post Fri, Dec 03 2021, 1:06 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
Like I said I'm not engaging with posters that are being hurtful.


OP I completely agree with you and think these responses are outrageous! If your 5 year old is capable of making the mess she’s capable of cleaning up the mess. I never clean up my (same age child) toys! I ‘help’ her by saying “ok now let’s clean up all the dollies and put it in this box” or “please put all the magnatiles in this box” She finds that tremendously helpful. Of corpse she wishes she could make the mess and not have to do any clean up at all bit that’s not how you teach responsibility. Or cause and effect. I’m fine with dolls being tucked into random places throughout my home but that also means it will take longer for her to clear up and I remind her of that. In my world and in our family it’s perfectly acceptable for children to be taught to put their clothes in the hamper and not the floor after they wear them. Even if we had cleaning help which we don’t I think a child who is enabled not to do
These basic things are shown to be lazy, entitled spoiled Brats. I’m sorry that so many don’t teach this from a young age. It’s not punitive, but rather it’s how we all learn to live together. We all want nice things (toys, books, markers) but the way to keep them nice is by putting them away.
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amother
Forsythia


 

Post Fri, Dec 03 2021, 1:15 pm
I have children a lot older than 5. Some pre teens even, and since they were toddlers we have been training them to clean up, put things away, and it doesn’t end. I think you have to have a realistic expectation that children (and even young teens) need constant reminders. The hope is that one day they WILL do things on their own, without being told, but I can’t imagine there are many 5 year olds who clean up and put things away without direction…
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amother
Ebony


 

Post Fri, Dec 03 2021, 1:17 pm
OP - I think you should make a chart. Give her stars for doing things until it becomes habit. Also be realistic about your expectations.

1. I have pictures of the toys outsides the bins so the magnatile bin has a picture outside.

2. Toys that are too hard to put back or have many small pieces should be placed up high so she cannot access them.

3. I have many young children keh who make a mess but I do limit 1 or 2 toys.

4. A 5 year old can put clothing into a hamper but cannot sort clothing unless you instruct her how again and again.

5. Serve in plastic so your child can dump the entire plate in garbage and not need to clear it.

6. A 5 year old can make a bed but it will look like a 5 year old made it.

7. Do get yourself some physical help becuase you need it. I don't know where you live but there are organizations for this if you can't afford it and don't have family who can help. You probably need it for more than just your child. You need it for yourself.
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Blessing1




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Dec 03 2021, 1:19 pm
amother [ Jasmine ] wrote:
OP I completely agree with you and think these responses are outrageous! If your 5 year old is capable of making the mess she’s capable of cleaning up the mess. I never clean up my (same age child) toys! I ‘help’ her by saying “ok now let’s clean up all the dollies and put it in this box” or “please put all the magnatiles in this box” She finds that tremendously helpful. Of corpse she wishes she could make the mess and not have to do any clean up at all bit that’s not how you teach responsibility. Or cause and effect. I’m fine with dolls being tucked into random places throughout my home but that also means it will take longer for her to clear up and I remind her of that. In my world and in our family it’s perfectly acceptable for children to be taught to put their clothes in the hamper and not the floor after they wear them. Even if we had cleaning help which we don’t I think a child who is enabled not to do
These basic things are shown to be lazy, entitled spoiled Brats. I’m sorry that so many don’t teach this from a young age. It’s not punitive, but rather it’s how we all learn to live together. We all want nice things (toys, books, markers) but the way to keep them nice is by putting them away.


What's outrageous is that a mom needs her 5 year old to do beyond age appropriate chores because mom physically isn't able to & mom wants child to do those things on her own. What's outrageous is a mom saying that her 5 year old doesn't feel the need to please mom. What's outrageous here is that mom doesn't get what's wrong with the picture. Yes, age appropriate chores are good and healthy for children. No, children should not be doing chores because mom isn't physically able to or in order to please mom. Children shouldn't be forced into doing chores.


Last edited by Blessing1 on Fri, Dec 03 2021, 2:28 pm; edited 2 times in total
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amother
OP


 

Post Fri, Dec 03 2021, 1:23 pm
amother [ Ebony ] wrote:
OP - I think you should make a chart. Give her stars for doing things until it becomes habit. Also be realistic about your expectations.

1. I have pictures of the toys outsides the bins so the magnatile bin has a picture outside.

2. Toys that are too hard to put back or have many small pieces should be placed up high so she cannot access them.

3. I have many young children keh who make a mess but I do limit 1 or 2 toys.

4. A 5 year old can put clothing into a hamper but cannot sort clothing unless you instruct her how again and again.

5. Serve in plastic so your child can dump the entire plate in garbage and not need to clear it.

6. A 5 year old can make a bed but it will look like a 5 year old made it.

7. Do get yourself some physical help becuase you need it. I don't know where you live but there are organizations for this if you can't afford it and don't have family who can help. You probably need it for more than just your child. You need it for yourself.


2. Doll house toys? Its about 75 pieces?

5. She has her own hamper so she just dumps it in. BH this is something we are just working on and she has fun aiming it like a ball.

6. Make her own bed? Ok. Will stash that idea for later Smile

7. Working on it. I let a lot of things slide. That's really my best coping mechanism. Keeps everyone happy.
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#BestBubby




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Dec 03 2021, 1:25 pm
Blessing1 wrote:
What's outrageous is that a mom needs her 5 year old to do beyond age appropriate chores because mom physically isn't able to & mom wants child to do those things on her own. What's outrageous here is that mom doesn't get what's wrong with the picture. Yes, age appropriate chore are good and healthy for children. No, children should not be doing chores because mom isn't physically able to and children shouldn't be forced into doing chores.


OP wants 5 y.o. to clean up her toys.

That IS age appropriate.

ps ever read farmer boy by laura ingalls?

A 9 y.o. worked hard all day on farm during busy weeks.

And he felt very proud and good self esteem for being so capable.
And owned his own homestead at 19.
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amother
Mayflower


 

Post Fri, Dec 03 2021, 1:27 pm
Heads up, I "trained" or taught rather all my children to be neat and organized and clean up after themselves. Around age 10 most of them decided cleaning up isn't that important and there went all my training.
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Chayalle




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Dec 03 2021, 1:28 pm
amother [ Jasmine ] wrote:
OP I completely agree with you and think these responses are outrageous! If your 5 year old is capable of making the mess she’s capable of cleaning up the mess. I never clean up my (same age child) toys! I ‘help’ her by saying “ok now let’s clean up all the dollies and put it in this box” or “please put all the magnatiles in this box” She finds that tremendously helpful. Of corpse she wishes she could make the mess and not have to do any clean up at all bit that’s not how you teach responsibility. Or cause and effect. I’m fine with dolls being tucked into random places throughout my home but that also means it will take longer for her to clear up and I remind her of that. In my world and in our family it’s perfectly acceptable for children to be taught to put their clothes in the hamper and not the floor after they wear them. Even if we had cleaning help which we don’t I think a child who is enabled not to do
These basic things are shown to be lazy, entitled spoiled Brats. I’m sorry that so many don’t teach this from a young age. It’s not punitive, but rather it’s how we all learn to live together. We all want nice things (toys, books, markers) but the way to keep them nice is by putting them away.


Do you really think that any child capable of making a mess is capable of cleaning it up? Because that is IMVHO outrageous. It's perfectly obvious that young children can be far more destructive than their fixing capabilities. Or perhaps you are one of those mothers who has been blessed with children of an easier disposition, and you consider that to your credit and judge all those who weren't similarly created?

I'm all for trying to teach kids responsible habits, but I'm a big believer in realistic expectations, along with what Shlomo HaMelech said in Mishlei "Chanoch L'Naar Al Pi Darko, Gam Ki Yazkin Lo Yasur Mimenah". Not every child will be as capable, as forthcoming, as readily teachable with those wonderful lessons of cause and effect, responsibility, etc....
Sure it should be taught, but not every child will be ready at age 5. Sometimes we must accept the child's own level and capabilities, and act accordingly.

I'll also appreciate it if you don't call my wonderful children, who learned the basics at their own paces, the negative attributes you use in your last paragraph - words I never use in my household, as I try to teach my kids only positive speech when discussing other people - from a young age too.
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amother
Mayflower


 

Post Fri, Dec 03 2021, 1:28 pm
#BestBubby wrote:
OP wants 5 y.o. to clean up her toys.

That IS age appropriate.

ps ever read farmer boy by laura ingalls?

A 9 y.o. worked hard all day on farm during busy weeks.

And he felt very proud and good self esteem for being so capable.
And owned his own homestead at 19.

I hope you are kidding.
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Zehava




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Dec 03 2021, 1:30 pm
amother [ Mayflower ] wrote:
Heads up, I "trained" or taught rather all my children to be neat and organized and clean up after themselves. Around age 10 most of them decided cleaning up isn't that important and there went all my training.

I find that at some point personality wins regardless of how much “training” (I hate that word kids aren’t animals) happens before.
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amother
Jasmine


 

Post Fri, Dec 03 2021, 1:31 pm
#BestBubby wrote:
OP wants 5 y.o. to clean up her toys.

That IS age appropriate.

ps ever read farmer boy by laura ingalls?

A 9 y.o. worjed hard all day on farm during busy weeks.

And he felt very proud and goid deld esteem for being so capable.
And owned his own homestead at 19.


LOL exactly. I’m not referring to cooking, laundry, grocery shopping. I’m not referring to cleaning up after MY mess. I’m not talking about washing the car or walking the dog. Not talking about caring for a younger sibling or watering the plants. I’m talking about cleaning up her own toys, from a mess that she made. It is 100000000% age appropriate to teach a child to do this and how to do this. Yes, it requires constant coaching and reinforcement. Of course it does I give this. But to imply that it’s Abusive is the most preposterous thing I’ve ever heard, but not that surprising considering adults in this generation are growing up to be entitled babies, expecting others to provide for them. This is how it starts. If children aren’t taught age appropriate responsibilities how will they learn?
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Chayalle




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Dec 03 2021, 1:31 pm
#BestBubby wrote:
OP wants 5 y.o. to clean up her toys.

That IS age appropriate.

ps ever read farmer boy by laura ingalls?

A 9 y.o. worked hard all day on farm during busy weeks.

And he felt very proud and good self esteem for being so capable.
And owned his own homestead at 19.


Yep I read the whole series. You know that adults who write childrens' books tend to glorify the child's capabilities at that age, right? I mean, we don't really know what Almanzo was really capable of at that age.

(as to his success later in life, the real story is that his farm failed, and they ended up living off Laura's writing capabilities, not his farming.)

Ever read the Five Little Peppers? Angels all of them, but I once read a fabulous introduction, where the author discusses the fact that the book is about how adults would like children to be...and not generally how they actually are.
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amother
Candycane


 

Post Fri, Dec 03 2021, 1:33 pm
OP I think these are all totally appropriate goals provided that : you realize they are long term goals and not going to happen overnight, and ideally, you are teaching her these skills for chinuch purposes, and not because you need her to. I realize you do need her to, and totally understand , but it’s important to not keep this in the front of your mind when teaching because it Changes the tone of the whole thing.

Practically you’ve gotten lots of good ideas, I will add that I like to let my kids choose one or 2 jobs when cleaning a very big mess, and I also don’t love incentives or bribes for regular everyday expectations but I will build in natural consequences such as “let’s get all the books on the shelf and then you could have a bedtime story” , or “ let’s put your plate and cup in the sink and then you I’ll slice an apple for dessert” . “Come put your homework folders in your backpack zip zip and then you can choose which toy to play with in the bath”. Occasionally I do resort to bribes or treats, depending on how desperate I am Wink . I also use timers a lot, not in a threatening way , but more like let’s see if we can beat the timer putting away all the crayons and then you’ll have time for a bedtime story.

Refuah sheleimah and good luck
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#BestBubby




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Dec 03 2021, 1:34 pm
amother [ Mayflower ] wrote:
I hope you are kidding.


It is a fact that almanzo wilder worked hard as a child.

I read lots of biographies and successful people were hardworking at young age.

Do you think 9 yo who train for olympics are abused?
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Chayalle




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Dec 03 2021, 1:36 pm
#BestBubby wrote:
It is a fact that almanzo wilder worked hard as a child.

I read lots of biographies and successful people were hardworking at young age.

Do you think 9 yo who train for olympics are abused?


They absolutely have unhealthy childhoods in many cases. And in some cases, yes, they are abused. (I've read some books about that too.)

None of us know what Almanzo Wilder did as a child. Laura did not write entirely factual books. She took plenty of literary license in her writing.
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amother
Mayflower


 

Post Fri, Dec 03 2021, 1:36 pm
amother [ Jasmine ] wrote:
LOL exactly. I’m not referring to cooking, laundry, grocery shopping. I’m not referring to cleaning up after MY mess. I’m not talking about washing the car or walking the dog. Not talking about caring for a younger sibling or watering the plants. I’m talking about cleaning up her own toys, from a mess that she made. It is 100000000% age appropriate to teach a child to do this and how to do this. Yes, it requires constant coaching and reinforcement. Of course it does I give this. But to imply that it’s Abusive is the most preposterous thing I’ve ever heard, but not that surprising considering adults in this generation are growing up to be entitled babies, expecting others to provide for them. This is how it starts. If children aren’t taught age appropriate responsibilities how will they learn?

Is it really so surprising that a 5 yr old can make a mess to big for herself to clean up?
My 2 yr old can make a mess too big for me to clean up.
Kids balk at cleanup jobs not because they're spoiled and entitled but because the job is too big. It needs to be broken down like "first let's pickup all the purple pieces, here I'll help you."
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Chayalle




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Dec 03 2021, 1:37 pm
amother [ Candycane ] wrote:
OP I think these are all totally appropriate goals provided that : you realize they are long term goals and not going to happen overnight, and ideally, you are teaching her these skills for chinuch purposes, and not because you need her to. I realize you do need her to, and totally understand , but it’s important to not keep this in the front of your mind when teaching because it Changes the tone of the whole thing.

Practically you’ve gotten lots of good ideas, I will add that I like to let my kids choose one or 2 jobs when cleaning a very big mess, and I also don’t love incentives or bribes for regular everyday expectations but I will build in natural consequences such as “let’s get all the books on the shelf and then you could have a bedtime story” , or “ let’s put your plate and cup in the sink and then you I’ll slice an apple for dessert” . “Come put your homework folders in your backpack zip zip and then you can choose which toy to play with in the bath”. Occasionally I do resort to bribes or treats, depending on how desperate I am Wink . I also use timers a lot, not in a threatening way , but more like let’s see if we can beat the timer putting away all the crayons and then you’ll have time for a bedtime story.

Refuah sheleimah and good luck


Excellent post especially the bolded
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#BestBubby




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Dec 03 2021, 1:37 pm
Chayalle wrote:
Yep I read the whole series. You know that adults who write childrens' books tend to glorify the child's capabilities at that age, right? I mean, we don't really know what Almanzo was really capable of at that age.

(as to his success later in life, the real story is that his farm failed, and they ended up living off Laura's writing capabilities, not his farming.)

Ever read the Five Little Peppers? Angels all of them, but I once read a fabulous introduction, where the author discusses the fact that the book is about how adults would like children to be...and not generally how they actually are.


Wilder was handicapped by. serious fever as newly wed. But he worked as hard as hecould. There was no welfare.

Laura published her booksin her 60s and that let them live more comfortably.
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amother
Mayflower


 

Post Fri, Dec 03 2021, 1:38 pm
#BestBubby wrote:
It is a fact that almanzo wilder worked hard as a child.

I read lots of biographies and successful people were hardworking at young age.

Do you think 9 yo who train for olympics are abused?

Yeah they may be.
We don't work children hard today in order for them to be successful tomorrow. A child is a 3D person not your convenient robot.
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amother
Jasmine


 

Post Fri, Dec 03 2021, 1:40 pm
amother [ Mayflower ] wrote:
Is it really so surprising that a 5 yr old can make a mess to big for herself to clean up?
My 2 yr old can make a mess too big for me to clean up.
Kids balk at cleanup jobs not because they're spoiled and entitled but because the job is too big. It needs to be broken down like "first let's pickup all the purple pieces, here I'll help you."


Exactly! I said that up thread. But to say that that it can’t be done it’s Ridiculous.
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