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Forum
-> Interesting Discussions
Lita
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 Thu, Dec 09 2021, 4:14 pm
I read that she divorced because that’s what she was told she should do.
She told her parents during her first engagement that she made a mistake and didn’t want to marry her chosson. They consulted their Rav who told her better to get married and then divorce, than to break an engagement.
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Raisin
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Thu, Dec 09 2021, 4:24 pm
| Chayalle wrote: | The first time I read this was on this site, and it was posted by Freidasima.
I would want a more factual source that this. (I do know that there were prostitution issues, girls from poor families taken to S. America and facing this. But haven't seen sources about willing prostitution taking place in Europe.) |
Look up Bertha Pappenheim, a frum woman who spent her life campaigning in this area.
here are some excerpts for you. The second article discusses the reasons girls went or were forced into prostitution. Poverty, lack of men to marry (they all emigrated), poor education, lack of choices of jobs, etc
For Pappenheim, an Orthodox feminist, the struggle against the traffic in Jewish
women was accompanied by a sharp critique of the ‘centuries-long suppression
of Jewish women’ in traditional Judaism, and, in particular, of its neglect of girls’
education.32 She was not shy about making these views clear: in 1912 she met the Aleksanderer Rebbe, delivering ‘a vivid lecture’ on the problem of prostitution
in Galicia (the rebbe, she notes, piously turned his back to her as she spoke, but
responded with interest and concern).33 The effects of these interventions,
Pappenheim conceded, were minimal. In the press, at rabbinic and other conferences, and even in hasidic courts, the problem of girls’ defection from Orthodoxy
(whether to become secular, to convert, or to become harlots) was a topic of
persistent concern, with the solution of religious education proposed from
many different quarters. Nevertheless, the Orthodox community in Galicia was
too politically splintered to effectively organize, and too wary of outsiders to
accept their recommendations or help.
From the Seidman book.
Definitely worth a read.
From an academic article
Anglo-Jewry and the Jewish International Traffic in Prostitution, 1885-1914
Still, from s-xual lapses to s-xual promiscuity there was a large step, and
thence to prostitution was still a greater one. The transition from occasional
or part-time prostitution to employment in commercially organized s-xual
vice meant a further step. Each of these phases existed in East European
Jewry before the close of the nineteenth century. Trafficking in prostitution
was treated in that great, unsparing realist Mendele Mokher Seforim's novel
In the Vale of Tears (Be-'emeq ha-bakha) and in its Yiddish version, The
Wishing Ring (Dos Vintshfingerl). Written during the 1880s, this work was
set during the 1840s and 1850s. By the turn of the twentieth century, a demi-
monde of brothels owned by Jews and inhabited by Jewish harlots
existed in Warsaw and Lodz.5 Vilna's Jewish harlots, said to be numer-
ous, were allegedly drawn from the small towns of Lithuania.6 The existence
of brothels owned by Jews and inhabited by Jewish harlots is also
attested for Brody, Lemberg, Tarnopol, Cracow, and Czernowitz, and they
were no doubt to be found elsewhere. A report published in London tells of
twenty-six Jews convicted in Lemberg in 1892 for procuring girls who were
to be sold in Alexandria and points east. Sixty had been rescued a year ear-
lier in Constantinople by the Austrian consul.7 Nevertheless, as late as 1912
the established Jewish communal leadership both in Brody and Tarnopol
denied that the traffic existed in their cities although 'everyone knew' in the words of Bertha Pappenheim (1859-1936), the German Jewish social
worker and feminist, that it did exist.
Contemporary Yiddish plays of the realistic theater, including Peretz
Hirschbein's Miriam of 1905 and Sholem Asch's Got fun nekome (1912)
created a stir with their theme of prostitution. Both plays treated the Jewish
traffic in prostitution in terms which make clear that the audience was well
aware of its existence. Popular awareness is also demonstrated by the large,
varied vocabulary and numerous sayings about prostitution.9 Miriam,
originally written in Hebrew, was Hirschbein's first dramatic work, and it
virtually stages articles written by "A.", discussed below, and Borokhov.
Miriam is a lovable, innocent orphan from a village who comes to a "large
Lithuanian city"-obviously Vilna-to work in a cellar hosiery workshop.
She meets Zilberman, a wealthy, handsome young man and, heedless of her
fellow workers' warning, goes with him. She becomes pregnant by Zilber-
man, who abandons her. About to give birth, Miriam staggers back to the
workshop, where her old friends aid her. The play ends with Miriam as an
ill-treated inmate of a brothel, her baby boy cared for by a nurse, visiting
remorsefully with a Jewish and a Christian fellow harlot.
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zaq
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Thu, Dec 09 2021, 6:08 pm
[quote="worldtraveller”], it's mandatory for girls to get an education so schools would exist anyways... .[/quote].
The US government does not mandate religious education for girls, only secular. Education became compulsory for all children ages 7-14 in Poland in 1919. Frum girls were attending public schools. If SS hadn’t come up with the revolutionary idea of RELIGIOUS schools for girls, we would have almost the same problem today: girls with no religious education receiving a totally secular education and being valued for their brains only in the secular world. Why wouldn’t they want to mingle with people who let them study what they like? (Well, almost. This was, after all, still the early part of the 20th Century.)
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Einikel
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Thu, Dec 09 2021, 6:30 pm
| Raisin wrote: | Look up Bertha Pappenheim, a frum woman who spent her life campaigning in this area.
here are some excerpts for you. The second article discusses the reasons girls went or were forced into prostitution. Poverty, lack of men to marry (they all emigrated), poor education, lack of choices of jobs, etc
For Pappenheim, an Orthodox feminist, the struggle against the traffic in Jewish
women was accompanied by a sharp critique of the ‘centuries-long suppression
of Jewish women’ in traditional Judaism, and, in particular, of its neglect of girls’
education.32 She was not shy about making these views clear: in 1912 she met the Aleksanderer Rebbe, delivering ‘a vivid lecture’ on the problem of prostitution
in Galicia (the rebbe, she notes, piously turned his back to her as she spoke, but
responded with interest and concern).33 The effects of these interventions,
Pappenheim conceded, were minimal. In the press, at rabbinic and other conferences, and even in hasidic courts, the problem of girls’ defection from Orthodoxy
(whether to become secular, to convert, or to become harlots) was a topic of
persistent concern, with the solution of religious education proposed from
many different quarters. Nevertheless, the Orthodox community in Galicia was
too politically splintered to effectively organize, and too wary of outsiders to
accept their recommendations or help.
From the Seidman book.
Definitely worth a read.
From an academic article
Anglo-Jewry and the Jewish International Traffic in Prostitution, 1885-1914
Still, from s-xual lapses to s-xual promiscuity there was a large step, and
thence to prostitution was still a greater one. The transition from occasional
or part-time prostitution to employment in commercially organized s-xual
vice meant a further step. Each of these phases existed in East European
Jewry before the close of the nineteenth century. Trafficking in prostitution
was treated in that great, unsparing realist Mendele Mokher Seforim's novel
In the Vale of Tears (Be-'emeq ha-bakha) and in its Yiddish version, The
Wishing Ring (Dos Vintshfingerl). Written during the 1880s, this work was
set during the 1840s and 1850s. By the turn of the twentieth century, a demi-
monde of brothels owned by Jews and inhabited by Jewish harlots
existed in Warsaw and Lodz.5 Vilna's Jewish harlots, said to be numer-
ous, were allegedly drawn from the small towns of Lithuania.6 The existence
of brothels owned by Jews and inhabited by Jewish harlots is also
attested for Brody, Lemberg, Tarnopol, Cracow, and Czernowitz, and they
were no doubt to be found elsewhere. A report published in London tells of
twenty-six Jews convicted in Lemberg in 1892 for procuring girls who were
to be sold in Alexandria and points east. Sixty had been rescued a year ear-
lier in Constantinople by the Austrian consul.7 Nevertheless, as late as 1912
the established Jewish communal leadership both in Brody and Tarnopol
denied that the traffic existed in their cities although 'everyone knew' in the words of Bertha Pappenheim (1859-1936), the German Jewish social
worker and feminist, that it did exist.
Contemporary Yiddish plays of the realistic theater, including Peretz
Hirschbein's Miriam of 1905 and Sholem Asch's Got fun nekome (1912)
created a stir with their theme of prostitution. Both plays treated the Jewish
traffic in prostitution in terms which make clear that the audience was well
aware of its existence. Popular awareness is also demonstrated by the large,
varied vocabulary and numerous sayings about prostitution.9 Miriam,
originally written in Hebrew, was Hirschbein's first dramatic work, and it
virtually stages articles written by "A.", discussed below, and Borokhov.
Miriam is a lovable, innocent orphan from a village who comes to a "large
Lithuanian city"-obviously Vilna-to work in a cellar hosiery workshop.
She meets Zilberman, a wealthy, handsome young man and, heedless of her
fellow workers' warning, goes with him. She becomes pregnant by Zilber-
man, who abandons her. About to give birth, Miriam staggers back to the
workshop, where her old friends aid her. The play ends with Miriam as an
ill-treated inmate of a brothel, her baby boy cared for by a nurse, visiting
remorsefully with a Jewish and a Christian fellow harlot. |
This is fascinating and horrifying at the same time
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Moonlight
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Fri, Dec 10 2021, 7:34 am
| Raisin wrote: | Look up Bertha Pappenheim, a frum woman who spent her life campaigning in this area.
here are some excerpts for you. The second article discusses the reasons girls went or were forced into prostitution. Poverty, lack of men to marry (they all emigrated), poor education, lack of choices of jobs, etc
For Pappenheim, an Orthodox feminist, the struggle against the traffic in Jewish
women was accompanied by a sharp critique of the ‘centuries-long suppression
of Jewish women’ in traditional Judaism, and, in particular, of its neglect of girls’
education.32 She was not shy about making these views clear: in 1912 she met the Aleksanderer Rebbe, delivering ‘a vivid lecture’ on the problem of prostitution
in Galicia (the rebbe, she notes, piously turned his back to her as she spoke, but
responded with interest and concern).33 The effects of these interventions,
Pappenheim conceded, were minimal. In the press, at rabbinic and other conferences, and even in hasidic courts, the problem of girls’ defection from Orthodoxy
(whether to become secular, to convert, or to become harlots) was a topic of
persistent concern, with the solution of religious education proposed from
many different quarters. Nevertheless, the Orthodox community in Galicia was
too politically splintered to effectively organize, and too wary of outsiders to
accept their recommendations or help.
From the Seidman book.
Definitely worth a read.
From an academic article
Anglo-Jewry and the Jewish International Traffic in Prostitution, 1885-1914
Still, from s-xual lapses to s-xual promiscuity there was a large step, and
thence to prostitution was still a greater one. The transition from occasional
or part-time prostitution to employment in commercially organized s-xual
vice meant a further step. Each of these phases existed in East European
Jewry before the close of the nineteenth century. Trafficking in prostitution
was treated in that great, unsparing realist Mendele Mokher Seforim's novel
In the Vale of Tears (Be-'emeq ha-bakha) and in its Yiddish version, The
Wishing Ring (Dos Vintshfingerl). Written during the 1880s, this work was
set during the 1840s and 1850s. By the turn of the twentieth century, a demi-
monde of brothels owned by Jews and inhabited by Jewish harlots
existed in Warsaw and Lodz.5 Vilna's Jewish harlots, said to be numer-
ous, were allegedly drawn from the small towns of Lithuania.6 The existence
of brothels owned by Jews and inhabited by Jewish harlots is also
attested for Brody, Lemberg, Tarnopol, Cracow, and Czernowitz, and they
were no doubt to be found elsewhere. A report published in London tells of
twenty-six Jews convicted in Lemberg in 1892 for procuring girls who were
to be sold in Alexandria and points east. Sixty had been rescued a year ear-
lier in Constantinople by the Austrian consul.7 Nevertheless, as late as 1912
the established Jewish communal leadership both in Brody and Tarnopol
denied that the traffic existed in their cities although 'everyone knew' in the words of Bertha Pappenheim (1859-1936), the German Jewish social
worker and feminist, that it did exist.
Contemporary Yiddish plays of the realistic theater, including Peretz
Hirschbein's Miriam of 1905 and Sholem Asch's Got fun nekome (1912)
created a stir with their theme of prostitution. Both plays treated the Jewish
traffic in prostitution in terms which make clear that the audience was well
aware of its existence. Popular awareness is also demonstrated by the large,
varied vocabulary and numerous sayings about prostitution.9 Miriam,
originally written in Hebrew, was Hirschbein's first dramatic work, and it
virtually stages articles written by "A.", discussed below, and Borokhov.
Miriam is a lovable, innocent orphan from a village who comes to a "large
Lithuanian city"-obviously Vilna-to work in a cellar hosiery workshop.
She meets Zilberman, a wealthy, handsome young man and, heedless of her
fellow workers' warning, goes with him. She becomes pregnant by Zilber-
man, who abandons her. About to give birth, Miriam staggers back to the
workshop, where her old friends aid her. The play ends with Miriam as an
ill-treated inmate of a brothel, her baby boy cared for by a nurse, visiting
remorsefully with a Jewish and a Christian fellow harlot. |
Wow
Are u a history teacher?
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Ema of 5
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Fri, Dec 10 2021, 7:39 am
| Lita wrote: | I read that she divorced because that’s what she was told she should do.
She told her parents during her first engagement that she made a mistake and didn’t want to marry her chosson. They consulted their Rav who told her better to get married and then divorce, than to break an engagement. |
This would make sense, except that according to the Bais Yaakov project, she was married to him for 2.5-3 years (I don’t know what months she got married or divorced in, so it may not be have been a full 3 years.) If she was told to marry and divorce, why would they be married for 3 years?
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Raisin
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Fri, Dec 10 2021, 7:42 am
| Moonlight wrote: | Wow
Are u a history teacher? |
I love history and study it but it is not my full time job.
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Elfrida
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Fri, Dec 10 2021, 7:54 am
| Ema of 4 wrote: | | This would make sense, except that according to the Bais Yaakov project, she was married to him for 2.5-3 years (I don’t know what months she got married or divorced in, so it may not be have been a full 3 years.) If she was told to marry and divorce, why would they be married for 3 years? |
Getting back to the no children issue, not having children over three years of marriage in a time when birth control was limited and unreliable could be an indication of fertility issues. Any modern couple would be doing a fertility work up after two or three years.
Or they could have been really incompatible. These things weren't much discussed then.
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Ema of 5
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Fri, Dec 10 2021, 7:55 am
| Elfrida wrote: | Getting back to the no children issue, not having children over three years of marriage in a time when birth control was limited and unreliable could be an indication of fertility issues. Any modern couple would be doing a fertility work up after two or three years.
Or they could have been really incompatible. These things weren't much discussed then. |
I know all that. I was responding to the person who said that she was told to get married and divorced, rather than to break an engagement.
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Lita
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Fri, Dec 10 2021, 8:31 am
I don’t know.
I don’t recalling reading anything about being married for 3 years..
If the three years is accurate, perhaps she was told to give it time to see if she would feel differently? Maybe more time would make it more respectable, less scandalous than a speedy divorce? (Perhaps “infertility” was a cover?) These are guesses.
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Moonlight
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Fri, Dec 10 2021, 8:31 am
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Why is it suddenly ok to speculate about why someone got divorced ?
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NotInNJMommy
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Fri, Dec 10 2021, 8:32 am
| Moonlight wrote: | | Why is it suddenly ok to speculate about why someone got divorced ? |
When hasn't it been ok?
(I say that tongue in cheek because it's something, when asked, everyone says is a no no, but in reality, something the masses quite frankly unabashedly do.)
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Cherry Blossom
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Fri, Dec 10 2021, 8:38 am
The Baal Shem tov was divorced from is first wife.
I recall hearing that she was "Meshuga" - whatever that is trying to describe.
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skyeblue
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Sun, May 29 2022, 12:20 am
| dancingqueen wrote: | The truth probably lies in the middle.
It’s surprising, is there really no ArtScroll or similar biography of her? |
No. The truth lies with us, and not with Wikipedia's slant.
I'm sure that the Chofetz Chaim did not give his endorsement to a feminist, and it's obvious that Bais Yaakov is not an "anti-patriarchy" movement.
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skyeblue
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Sun, May 29 2022, 12:40 am
| chestnut wrote: | | I mean, her close relatives couldn't influence her to accept the get? Or tell her it's ok to move? |
I think I heard that one spouse's desire and attachment to live in Eretz Yisrael is a valid reason for divorce. ..Unless I'm mistaken or misstating something.
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chestnut
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Sun, May 29 2022, 12:41 am
| Cherry Blossom wrote: | The Baal Shem tov was divorced from is first wife.
I recall hearing that she was "Meshuga" - whatever that is trying to describe. |
Wow
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momaleh
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Sun, May 29 2022, 2:36 am
Slightly off topic, but in reference to the trafficking of Jewish girls at that time, I just read this fascinating novel:
https://www.amazon.com/Third-D.....96881
Tough read, but eye-opening and in many ways hopeful.
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Heyaaa
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Sun, May 29 2022, 2:58 am
| Cherry Blossom wrote: | The Baal Shem tov was divorced from is first wife.
I recall hearing that she was "Meshuga" - whatever that is trying to describe. |
His first wife died. Where did you see that he had a wife whom he divorced?
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shabbatiscoming
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Sun, May 29 2022, 3:10 am
| momaleh wrote: | Slightly off topic, but in reference to the trafficking of Jewish girls at that time, I just read this fascinating novel:
https://www.amazon.com/Third-D.....96881
Tough read, but eye-opening and in many ways hopeful. | This was probably one of the saddest books I ever read. I had not known about this in history. So while I learned about a tkufa in jewish history that I had never known about, it was so sad that it made me feel sick reading it as well. So sad that this is from our history.
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myself
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Sun, May 29 2022, 6:13 am
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ra_mom, I also heard of Belzers who attended Sara Schenierer's after-school program. It's interesting to hear that the Belzer Rebbe didn't endorse it.
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