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Forum
-> Interesting Discussions
Raisin
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 Wed, Dec 08 2021, 2:47 pm
There is also this book for a good history of beis yaakov.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Sarah.....64697
Another issue probably not mentioned in artscroll style histories was the white slave trade. Jewish men lured young women into prostitution. Bertha Pappenheim was another frum women who was active in this area. Quote from a speech she gave: "there are an immense number of young Jewish women—mostly in Russia and Galicia—who fall into prostitution even while they are still living with their very religious parents. This too can be explained; these girls know that their only value is s-xual. Their individuality, their desires and curiosity are only rarely treated as valid . . . this is why the most strictly Orthodox communities in the east have contributed the largest share of human
merchandise to the traffic in girls and women."
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b.chadash
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Wed, Dec 08 2021, 3:04 pm
| Raisin wrote: | There is also this book for a good history of beis yaakov.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Sarah.....64697
Another issue probably not mentioned in artscroll style histories was the white slave trade. Jewish men lured young women into prostitution. Bertha Pappenheim was another frum women who was active in this area. Quote from a speech she gave: "there are an immense number of young Jewish women—mostly in Russia and Galicia—who fall into prostitution even while they are still living with their very religious parents. This too can be explained; these girls know that their only value is s-xual. Their individuality, their desires and curiosity are only rarely treated as valid . . . this is why the most strictly Orthodox communities in the east have contributed the largest share of human
merchandise to the traffic in girls and women." |
Yes this is a very sad and horrific piece of history. The Mishpacha recently ran a serial, authored by Leah Gebber that centered around this issue.
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Scotty
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Wed, Dec 08 2021, 3:15 pm
| ra_mom wrote: | | From different biographies, googling and conversations with people (dh is a history buff). It was interesting to me that she was Belz, received haskama from the Belzer rebbe, but then he didn't allow his followers to join the school at the end. So I soaked up whatever info I could find on the topic. |
He did?
My grandfather a”h, a “heiser” Belzer chossid, told me how his sisters were part of the Sarah Schenierer movement in Poland and how she would run shabbatons and fun activities like sledding to attract the girls - she realized she must make Jewish education “fun” and appealing!
This certainly changed my view of Sarah schenirer from the “boring perfect seamstress blah blah blah” stereotype I learned in school.
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b.chadash
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Wed, Dec 08 2021, 3:28 pm
| Scotty wrote: | He did?
My grandfather a”h, a “heiser” Belzer chossid, told me how his sisters were part of the Sarah Schenierer movement in Poland and how she would run shabbatons and fun activities like sledding to attract the girls - she realized she must make Jewish education “fun” and appealing!
This certainly changed my view of Sarah schenirer from the “boring perfect seamstress blah blah blah” stereotype I learned in school. |
In Judith Grunfeld's book, there is a wealth of information on Sarah Schenirer. She taught in her school for many years. There are many pictures of the girls in the mountains (camp?) , dancing. She certainly was focused on giving the girls "fun" meaningful times.
On the other hand, some people have the perception that Sarah Schenirer's goal was to teach the basics, and focus on being good Jewish mothers, and not to make the girls into "Torah Scholars". They feel that today's curriculum in Bais Yaakov is over the top.
But, there are copies of the daily schedule and many of the lessons she taught. You can see that the schools today have nothing on Sara Schenirer's curriculum. She taught on a very high level, on many subjects. It was far more than just the basics.
Also, to the poster who asked how she became so educated.. she obviously was brilliant and had a great intellectual thirst. From what I remember reading, she had stayed in a certain German town for a summer, and every Shabbos she would go to shul to daven and hear the Rabbi talk. She was blown away by the depth and breadth of his shiurim. After shabbos, she would write down what he said, and many of her later lessons were fashioned from those shiurim. (I may have gotten some of the details wrong.)
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worldtraveller
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Wed, Dec 08 2021, 3:39 pm
In my school, Sarah Schnirer was never mentioned although I knew from reading a lot that she was an amazing woman.
I wonder how she impacted my education. My school had no connection to Sarah Schnirer's students. Nowadays, it's mandatory for girls to get an education so schools would exist anyways... If Sarah Schnirer wouldn't have existed, would my schooling have been any different?
I would love to understand her influence on schools nowadays.
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Ema of 5
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Wed, Dec 08 2021, 3:59 pm
| Raisin wrote: | There is also this book for a good history of beis yaakov.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Sarah.....64697
Another issue probably not mentioned in artscroll style histories was the white slave trade. Jewish men lured young women into prostitution. Bertha Pappenheim was another frum women who was active in this area. Quote from a speech she gave: "there are an immense number of young Jewish women—mostly in Russia and Galicia—who fall into prostitution even while they are still living with their very religious parents. This too can be explained; these girls know that their only value is s-xual. Their individuality, their desires and curiosity are only rarely treated as valid . . . this is why the most strictly Orthodox communities in the east have contributed the largest share of human
merchandise to the traffic in girls and women." |
This is the same book that was linked to earlier, but in the US it’s $40-something dollars….
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GLUE
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Wed, Dec 08 2021, 4:26 pm
| Ema of 4 wrote: | | This is the same book that was linked to earlier, but in the US it’s $40-something dollars…. |
If you live in the US and want to read it, go to your public library and ask them to inter library loan it. That is were if your public library does not carry the book you want it will get it from a different library. I have gotten a lot of books that way.
Even books you might not think a public library would have I have gotten.
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Ema of 5
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Wed, Dec 08 2021, 4:31 pm
| GLUE wrote: | If you live in the US and want to read it, go to your public library and ask them to inter library loan it. That is were if your public library does not carry the book you want it will get it from a different library. I have gotten a lot of books that way.
Even books you might not think a public library would have I have gotten. |
Thanks, I will check into it!!
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ra_mom
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Wed, Dec 08 2021, 5:09 pm
| Scotty wrote: | He did?
My grandfather a”h, a “heiser” Belzer chossid, told me how his sisters were part of the Sarah Schenierer movement in Poland and how she would run shabbatons and fun activities like sledding to attract the girls - she realized she must make Jewish education “fun” and appealing!
This certainly changed my view of Sarah schenirer from the “boring perfect seamstress blah blah blah” stereotype I learned in school. |
Wow, that's a really nice piece of history! I love hearing all the personal tidbits. I know of other Belzers, and this was not the case by them.
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b.chadash
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Wed, Dec 08 2021, 5:18 pm
| worldtraveller wrote: | In my school, Sarah Schnirer was never mentioned although I knew from reading a lot that she was an amazing woman.
I wonder how she impacted my education. My school had no connection to Sarah Schnirer's students. Nowadays, it's mandatory for girls to get an education so schools would exist anyways... If Sarah Schnirer wouldn't have existed, would my schooling have been any different?
I would love to understand her influence on schools nowadays. |
What school did you go to?
As I understand it, every frum school today owes their existence to Sara Schenirer. She paved the way for Jewish education for girls.
You're right that there is mandatory education today. There was mandatory education back then as well in the US. The frum girls went to public school. When Rebz Kaplan wanted to start the Bais Yaakov in America, it was an uphill battle to get even the frummest families to send to her school.
Bais Yaakov was only the first to provide girls with their own Torah education. (With the exception of Yavne and a few other small town schools.) All the other frum schools today followed the example set by Bais Yaaakov. Today it is a given that frum families won't send their kids to public schools.
Moreover, I would say the biggest impact she had on the Jewish people is that she saved an entire generation from being lost to yiddishkeit.
The situation at the time was very bad. The boys were going to yeshivos and becoming talmidei chachamim, but they had no one to marry. The girls did not appreciate yeshiva bachurim and in fact looked down at them.
The preferred instead to marry enlightened young men who were educated in secular studies. The girsl were going OTD in droves. Without a mother who can impart Torah values and raise a frum home, Jewish generations could not exist. The future of the Jewish people was literally at stake.
After she started spreading Torah learning among the girls, the continuity of the mesorah was preserved.
So even if you went to a chassidish school, which does not connect itself to Sarah Schenirer, it is certain that every religious Jew today was impacted by her movement.
By the way, one of the best books I have read on this era is Promise Me Tomorrow, by Sarah Birnhack. It describes how the families were torn apart. Fathers and brothers would be absorbed in speaking divrei Torah at the Shabbos table while the girls would slip away to read whatever intellectual secular book they had. And then after the meal they would go out to meet up with other youths where they discuss the hot issues of the day- Zionism and Socialism. They would also be mechalel Shabbos in these meetings. Since the girls were deprived of the beauty and depth of Torah, they went to look elsewhere for intellectual stimulation.
Sarah Schenirer aimed to show them the depth and wisdom that is found in Torah.
Last edited by b.chadash on Wed, Dec 08 2021, 5:34 pm; edited 1 time in total
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gootlfriends
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Wed, Dec 08 2021, 5:26 pm
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She got divorced because she couldn't have kids. The later marriage wasn't necessarily with the intention of having kids. Had she had children I doubt we would have bais yaakov today. We all have our own tafkid....
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Ema of 5
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Wed, Dec 08 2021, 5:29 pm
| gootlfriends wrote: | | She got divorced because she couldn't have kids. The later marriage wasn't necessarily with the intention of having kids. Had she had children I doubt we would have bais yaakov today. We all have our own tafkid.... |
Is that what “they were incompatible” means?
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RN613
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Wed, Dec 08 2021, 5:30 pm
| b.chadash wrote: | What school did you go to?
As I understand it, every frum school today owes their existence to Sara Schenirer. She paved the way for Jewish education for girls.
You're right that there is mandatory education today. There was mandatory education back then as well in the US. The frum girls went to public school. When Rebz Kaplan wanted to start the Bais Yaakov in America, it was an uphill battle to get even the frummest famines to send to her school.
Bais Yaakov was only the first to provide girls with their own Torah education. (With the exception of Yavne and a few other small town schools.) All the other schools followed the example wet by Bais Yaaakov. Today it is a given that frum families wont send their kids to public schools.
Moreover, I would say the biggest impact she had on the Jewish people is that she saved an entire generation from being lost to yiddishkeit.
The situation at the time was very bad. The boys were going to yeshivos and becoming talmidei chachamim, but they had no one to marry. The girls did not appreciate yeshiva Bachurim and in fact looked down at them.
The preferred instead to marry enlightened young men who were educated in secular studies. The girsl were going OTD in droves. Without a mother who can impart Torah values and raise a frum home, Jewish generations could not exist. The future of the Jewish people was literally at stake.
After she started spreading Torah learning among the girls, the continuity of The mesorah was preserved.
So even if you went to a chassidish school, which does not connect itself to Sarah Schenirer, it is certain that every religious Jew today was impacted by her movement.
By the way, one of the best books I have read on this era is Promise Me Tomorrow, by Sarah Birnhack. It describes how the families were torn apart. Fathers and brothers would be absorbed in speaking divrei Torah at the Shabbos table while the girls would slip away to read whatever intellectual secular book they had. And then after the meal they would go out to meet up with other youths where they discuss the hot issues of the day- Zionism and Socialism. They would also be mechalel Shabbos in these meetings. Since the girls were deprived of the beauty and depth of Torah, they went to look elsewhere for intellectual stimulation.
Sarah Schenirer aimed to show then the depth and wisdom that is found in Torah. |
Thanks everyone for all the book recommendations and info! This is all super interesting. I have some elderly relatives who attended early BY schools in Poland, but did not stay frum. I wish I had thought to ask them about their experiences before they passed away.
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PinkFridge
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Wed, Dec 08 2021, 5:32 pm
| dancingqueen wrote: | | Does no one else find it surprising and a little strange that there is no biography of Sarah Shnirer? |
See my post on p. 2.
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RN613
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Wed, Dec 08 2021, 5:33 pm
| gootlfriends wrote: | | She got divorced because she couldn't have kids. The later marriage wasn't necessarily with the intention of having kids. Had she had children I doubt we would have bais yaakov today. We all have our own tafkid.... |
Really? How do you know this?
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PinkFridge
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Wed, Dec 08 2021, 5:34 pm
| GLUE wrote: | If you live in the US and want to read it, go to your public library and ask them to inter library loan it. That is were if your public library does not carry the book you want it will get it from a different library. I have gotten a lot of books that way.
Even books you might not think a public library would have I have gotten. |
That's how I got it.
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ra_mom
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Wed, Dec 08 2021, 5:34 pm
| Ema of 4 wrote: | | Is that what “they were incompatible” means? |
I've read that her aspirations didn't set well with him. Who knows.
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gootlfriends
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Wed, Dec 08 2021, 5:35 pm
| RN613 wrote: | | Really? How do you know this? |
I read it somewhere. I don't remember where.
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PinkFridge
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Wed, Dec 08 2021, 5:35 pm
| b.chadash wrote: |
By the way, one of the best books I have read on this era is Promise Me Tomorrow, by Sarah Birnhack. It describes how the families were torn apart. Fathers and brothers would be absorbed in speaking divrei Torah at the Shabbos table while the girls would slip away to read whatever intellectual secular book they had. And then after the meal they would go out to meet up with other youths where they discuss the hot issues of the day- Zionism and Socialism. They would also be mechalel Shabbos in these meetings. Since the girls were deprived of the beauty and depth of Torah, they went to look elsewhere for intellectual stimulation.
Sarah Schenirer aimed to show then the depth and wisdom that is found in Torah. |
That book's a novel. Though very well-received.
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