Harav Fuerst regarding seminary

notshanarishona

Wed, Dec 29 2021, 3:56 pm

shabbatiscoming wrote:

Im sorry but sem teachers are not raking it in in any way shape or form. Im not sure what you having seen them come and go in taxis has anything to do with that. And maybe they were running late. And you dont actually know if the sems were paying for the taxis.
But sem teachers are definitely not raking it in.

My seminary actually made a point of telling us they paid for taxis for the teachers because it’s not bekavodik for them to be on busses.
And raking it in is relative, but working in a seminary definitely pays more than a typical teaching job. I have worked in seminaries.

Fox

Wed, Dec 29 2021, 3:57 pm

shabbatiscoming wrote:

Thank you for explaining this to everyone. I still cant understand how people believe that anyone in seminaries and yeshivot are making a lot of money.

I don't think anyone doubts that the seminary you worked for didn't necessarily compensate anyone above the market. That not the case for many seminaries. That's not necessarily wrong, per se. But it's something that people should be aware of when deciding whether to support the seminary system with their dollars.

shabbatiscoming

Wed, Dec 29 2021, 4:14 pm

notshanarishona wrote:

Wow, there is a lot wrong in telling impressionable girls that it isnt kavodik to take the bus. I know so many wonderful teachers, charedi and otherwise, who travel every day to work, by bus here in Israel. That doing a disservice to both the teachers and the girls for filling their heads with that none sense.
Im wondering if you know how much a typical teacher makes. Or the sem that you worked at was paying you more.
But again, I worked in the office of a sem. I know how much teachers got paid. Maybe it more than some teachers, but not all and it is not a lot. Its not like its a hi tech salary or even close. Its still not "raking it in".

shabbatiscoming

Wed, Dec 29 2021, 4:16 pm

Fox wrote:

SO what type of sems are compensating above market, the charedi ones? (Im scratching my head really)

Fox

Wed, Dec 29 2021, 4:29 pm

shabbatiscoming wrote:

SO what type of sems are compensating above market, the charedi ones? (Im scratching my head really)

The seminaries with which I became familiar were designed to serve BY graduates. "Chareidi" is not really a useful description given the different cultural dynamics.

In the cases with which I'm familiar, the seminaries falling into this category were organized as not-for-profit institutions but were run and administered by family groups.

In one case, for example, a daughter and son-in-law of the CEO -- "owner" -- were paid a near full-time salary to maintain the academic records and applications. The salary was far in excess of the demands or requirements of the job; it was a way to help support the daughter and son-in-law in kollel.

In another case, the CEO's three daughters all taught at the seminary and his wife was paid as a full-time "counselor."

I'm unfamiliar with MO seminaries, so I don't know that easy comparisons can be made. I'm not necessarily opposed to family businesses -- even seminaries. But there is a lot of variation in the business models, and just as it's not accurate to claim that every seminary pays above-market wages in certain circumstances, it's likewise inaccurate to claim that the issue doesn't exist.

It is undeniable that there are people making a lot of money off seminaries, and parents need to factor that into their decision regarding value versus price.

notshanarishona

Wed, Dec 29 2021, 4:31 pm

shabbatiscoming wrote:

I was paid 100 nis an hour. Significantly more than offered anywhere else.

amother

Hyssop

Wed, Dec 29 2021, 5:14 pm

I feel like I'm going to give away the seminary I went to... So, folks,pls don't spill the beans as I think it's lashon hara...

So no names, yes details:

The seminary I went to was VERY VERY into limmud haTorah over all. Which is true. That is our litvish derech. But with the ideal (that I also believe is true) of histapkus bemuay.

The place is a family business.
Mothers, daughters, nieces, daughters-in-law of the principal.
The principal wore stunning fancy outfits, sheitels, and shoes.
On trips, she wore clothing that was fancy, but a little bit simpler... What a high school mechaneches in America would wear in Lakewood.
We students were not invited, so I can't say I saw with my own eyes, but her apartment was supposedly two-story.
So no histapkus bemuat like the school espoused.
Students found it very hypocritical.

I was always impressed by one of the family members who worked there and was dressed simply, not ostentatious in any way. She taught in other seminaries too, because she obviously wasn't getting the most incredible salary in the family business.

Yrs, capitalism exists, so seminary owners can charge however much they want and use it however they choose...

But it's sad that seminary is such a given that we dive have a backbone and send, even if it doesn't work for us.

PinkFridge

Wed, Dec 29 2021, 8:17 pm

amother [ Hyssop ] wrote:

I'm going to say something. Hyssop,please don't say "I know for a fact that's not the case." I'm sure you know your facts in this case and it must have been so disillusioning. I hope it didn't impact you in any way.
But for everyone else, facing other situations, it's possible to be dlkz. I know a klei kodesh family with a stunning house; a rich relative insisted on building their stunning addition. I also know women who dress themselves and their kids really well - last year's styles, or special klei kodesh sales, gifts, etc.
Sometimes, people put up with a lot of other stuff in their lives, but at least they afford themselves xy and z.

shabbatiscoming

Thu, Dec 30 2021, 3:42 am

Fox wrote:

Wow, I dont know any sems like that. At all. Im thinking of all of the MO sems I know of and non are functioning like this. This is why this didnt make any sense to me.
Wow, so very different.
In the sems I know the staff and teachers are all amazing educators, full stop, no nepotism at all.

amother

Teal

Thu, Dec 30 2021, 4:00 am

notshanarishona wrote:

Israeli law requires employers to cover transportation. One way of giving employees a tax-free raise is by covering the cost of their car lease and gas. So I can see the seminaries paying for taxis, though it strikes me as extravagant.

A privately owned seminary is just a breeding ground for potential abuses. I'm sad to hear that this model is so prevalent.

notshanarishona

Thu, Dec 30 2021, 5:50 am

amother [ Teal ] wrote:

Yes, but it’s supposed to be the price of a Chofshi, not a taxi. It’s obviously they do it to get good teachers but it’s definitely not cheap.

notshanarishona

Thu, Dec 30 2021, 5:52 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

So then you werent making a lot. Jf it was 10 hours, it was like any part time job. If 20 then your salary was a nice one for sure.

Right, but it was 3x more than I was making at any of my other jobs. My point was that they pay a lot , and the owners and any one heavily involved is typically making a lot.
Which there is nothing wrong with, but people should just realize the cost of seminary is not so much because it actually costs that much to run an institution

amother

Molasses

Thu, Dec 30 2021, 5:58 am

notshanarishona wrote:

I was paid 100 nis an hour. Significantly more than offered anywhere else.

100 nis an hour to teach postsecondary education is not a lot at all.
In any secular college/mechina, a teacher gets around 280 nis per 45 min /academic hour (she does need an MA though).
A regular teacher in a regular high school with just a BA starts out at 8000 nis per month for 40 academic hours. Which seems like it comes out to 50 nis per hour, but actually comes out to much more, probably double, when you factor in paid summers and holidays and sick days, pension, sabbatical funds, etc. Plus almost half her hours aren’t classroom teaching.

So 100 nis for a seminary teacher is not that much in the Israeli job market.

Success10

Thu, Dec 30 2021, 6:10 am

amother [ Molasses ] wrote:

Yes, but it doesn't account for time spent grading tests, preparing classes, PTA conferences, time on phone with parents and students. A teacher's job extends beyond the classroom.

amother

Molasses

Thu, Dec 30 2021, 6:16 am

Success10 wrote:

Yes, but it doesn't account for time spent grading tests, preparing classes, PTA conferences, time on phone with parents and students. A teacher's job extends beyond the classroom.

The 40 hours includes everything. Only 24 hours are in the classroom.
Yes a few dedicated teachers may invest a bit more, but the bulk manage to do everything within the 40 hours. (There was a new reform in Israel a few years back, to expand the teaching position from 24 hours to 40, and have it include all grading, meetings, prep, one on one teaching, etc).

Whereas the sem teacher getting paid 100 nis per hour still needs to invest time beyond that hour (as do teachers in secular colleges getting paid 280 nis).

To add - a high school teacher with 10 yrs experience gets paid much more than 8000 nis per month.

notshanarishona

Thu, Dec 30 2021, 6:40 am

amother [ Molasses ] wrote:

With no qualifications? I was 20 with no degree at that point. Any other job I applied for was paying 25-35 nis an hour.