Harav Fuerst regarding seminary

amother

Peach

Tue, Dec 28 2021, 2:24 pm

Amother Almond, you are blaming outsiders for your own personal shortcomings. My son had to use his own money for yeshiva in Israel, and we insist he work every summer. There is no guarantee he can go back for a second year.

If you don’t think men are held accountable why don’t you hold your own son accountable? Who else will if not you?

ETA: it’s your stepson, I see. That’s a parenting choice and your husband being taken advantage of. That’s different.

I also want to add that I was brought up in a yeshivish setting but my parents insisted that both me AND my brother had degrees. My parents were forthright with us and said there’s no money for support. So we had to support ourselves.

amother

Iris

Tue, Dec 28 2021, 2:28 pm

amother [ Almond ] wrote:

Anon only because this is specific to me.

I am a former Chicagoan and know and respect R' Fuerst for many, many reasons. But this one is hard for me. What I am about to say is not, chas v'shalom against the rav, whom I respect greatly, rather this is a comment on the times.

Yet again, the girls are the korbanos. Why are the girls always the korbanos? Wedding costs are out of control? Get the girls at an overnight camp to sign a promise that they only want a bracelet and simple ring at their engagement. Make the wives work after marriage and the husbands get to stay in yeshiva and have all of their needs met. Make the girls be mevater on their kesuba. The boys get to sit with their feet up when they come home from yeshiva and the girls are sent home from school a few days early before each chag to help mommy in the kitchen.

I have a 12th grader daughter who is looking forward to seminary next year IYH. We can not POSSIBLY afford it, cause like, who can? Her school had a seminary night for the parents and they outlined every aspect of the year for us, including all of the financial assistance available like FAFSA, etc. I can not afford the spending money, she knows it, and she works 3 nights a week and Sunday mornings to save up for that. She is going, IYH.

My stepson, by contrast - he learned post high school in mesivta for 2.5 years and then decided on his own to go to Israel. To the Mir, no less. Yay. But he can't pay a dime of his own way. Better he relax every summer and send his bills to his mother. Who sends it to us. Cell phone, tickets, clothing, dira, food, tuition to the yeshiva...

So let's see. The boys get 2 years mesivta and then a year or two in Israel, then come back and learn again and THEN go get married, maybe with some college, maybe not. Girls get a year in Israel and then go to work and/or school, often both at the same time. As far as I can tell, the money evens out. It's the same on both sides.

But if we are going to eliminate one gender from the extra learning, why not make the boys stop earlier? The girls are the ones who need this extra time to sustain themselves through the next few years. They are the ones who need to have the learning to bring into their homes and create the right atmosphere.

I just want to sit here and cry, I am so tired of the girls being the korbanos.

I sent a ds and a dd to learn in Israel, so I hear both sides of it. Tuition for the Mir, including the dorm is so much cheaper, you just can't compare. One difference is that the seminaries have to offer the girls so much more, the trips, the food, shabbosim, programs etc. So it does cost them a lot more. The Mir also does a lot of fundraising which the seminaries can't compete with.

But I also have a relative who owns a seminary in Israel and they employ lots of their family members and they all seem to be living very nicely. I have no idea how much they're making but it looks like it's a nice profit.

For my dd it was an amazing experience. Besides for all of the experiences, she said you can't compare the teachers she had in Israel to her high school teachers. She really gained a lot and I hope I can afford to send my younger dds.

amother

Lily

Tue, Dec 28 2021, 2:33 pm

amother [ Almond ] wrote:

Oh my.
This.
I'm also a former Chicagoan.
Even if Chicago opened a seminary, most girls would not go. They would go to Lakewood or Brooklyn for 20k including dorm and travel expenses.
Seminary I not just Grade 13. Girls want to meet new friends, be exposed to new teachers.
If Chicago opens a seminary, I can tell you who will be the teachers. The same exact women teaching in HSBY and BYHSC.

I went to seminary 20 years ago. Ironically my husband was at Brisk the same year.
Yes, my seminary charged 16k (20 years ago) but it included everything. Food, board, Shabbos, tickets, insurance, trips. And many of us babysat at Anglo families to earn extra pocket money for bus cards and pizza. No we didn't go home for Pesach, we went to teachers. And most of our parents didn't come in.
My husband in Brisk the same year, my in-laws said came out to 15k. They paid tuition. Dora separate. Many meals weren't provided. Insurance. Tickets. Home for Pesach because EVERY SINGLE BACHUR GOES HOME. Separate for tiyulim during bain hazmanim. Trips to the kosel and tzfas (our seminary took us to the kosel every 3 weeks). Seforim.

Why aren't they making more standard Yeshivos for boys in America.

amother

Almond

Tue, Dec 28 2021, 2:35 pm

amother [ Iris ] wrote:

I was adding up all of the years of learning the boys get, including a few years in Israel, with the ONE year our girls get. Also, yes I can compare what we've paid for already 2.5 years of post high school dorming and mesivta tuition, now the Mir (which is cheaper but not incomparably so), and the cost of yet more years learning post Mir in the States, or to continue in Israel, which ever he decides. Oh, and the extra airfare each time he comes home and goes back. It's an expense, a massive one.

And I am wondering why our girls are always the ones who are the korbanos.

amother

Melon

Tue, Dec 28 2021, 2:35 pm

amother [ Almond ] wrote:

WADR, this is very specific to your family and your situation.

First of all, the boys going to Eretz Yisroel are going to learn, they're not going for the "experience". Girls are there to have a good time, boys have to seriously learn. (Not every boy learns seriously, obviously, but those boys should not be going to Israel in the first place, probably).

Second. My sons make pesach for me. From alef to taf, soup to nuts. While they maintain a serious learning seder. While they are still going to minyan three times a day. Seriously, these boys are very, very far from sitting with their feet up.

Third. My sons work in the summer for their spending money. They get meals from yeshiva (which in the Mir can be soy franks), and they don't have an unlimited budget at all for takeout food.

The married men are the ones picking up the kids from the babysitter, going shopping.... they cook and clean as well.

The picture you have just painted is so, so far from the truth in my community (the very yeshivish community which you seem to be describing). And very far from the truth in my family.

amother

Hosta

Tue, Dec 28 2021, 2:39 pm

amother [ Almond ] wrote:

Anon only because this is specific to me.

I have a 12th grader daughter who is looking forward to seminary next year IYH. We can not POSSIBLY afford it, cause like, who can? Her school had a seminary night for the parents and they outlined every aspect of the year for us, including all of the financial assistance available like FAFSA, etc. I can not afford the spending money, she knows it, and she works 3 nights a week and Sunday mornings to save up for that. She is going, IYH.

Completely agree with just about all of your comment. Just want to highlight this paragraph. My daughter is in (a very academic) seminary this year and she worked all last year at a job she didn’t particularly like - in order to earn the money for her flights, spending, anything that is not tuition, etc. In addition, she went with the understanding that she will not be coming home for Pesach and should not expect us to visit. B”H she is very, very happy there, and I can see her growing in so many ways - not the least of it is having stuck with a job she did not particularly like, because she had a goal and was determined to earn the money for it. As a consequence, she is also very conscious of how much spending money she has and is budgeting so as not to run out . . . All that in addition to the limudim and the kesher she is forming with teachers who are role models and many outstanding girls her own age.

I do not mean that every girl must go to E”Y, and parents should certainly not go into debt to finance it - but I am very glad that we were able to make it work for our girls (with their assistance) and I feel that they have gained tremendously both from the learning and the experience. I agree with the prior commentor that other luxuries should be eliminated before Seminary for girls.

amother

Almond

Tue, Dec 28 2021, 2:40 pm

amother [ Lily ] wrote:

AGREED! I am in Baltimore and a few girls go to Lakewood for seminary, some years Maalot (WITS) has a shana alef year, but its not free either.

Let the boys go for a year post high school, then come back and learn all day and at 8pm, they can go to college and learn a trade, or just learn a few years and then go to college or whatever. Our girls work all day until 3ish and then sit in college all night. It used to be that only the illuyim stay in learning for years and years, now it's most of them. While our girls are... you guessed it... the korbanos.

amother

Hosta

Tue, Dec 28 2021, 2:42 pm

amother [ Firebrick ] wrote:

Why in the world do girls need to go to seminary?? If 12 years of schooling wasn’t enough then our schools have a problem. These girls should start college already or get a job.
What a waste of time and money.
I’m sick of this already. Seminary is a money making scam.
I didn’t go to seminary and don’t regret it for a second. My friends all said they wasted a year.

I completely (and respectfully) disagree. Seminary is the last chance (most) girls will get to sit and learn without being burdened with multiple obligations that typically preclude any formal learning. Girls should make the most of it (and we should support them).

amother

Jetblack

Tue, Dec 28 2021, 2:44 pm

The girls signing the jewelry takanah (which I doubt anyone will hold them to, tbh) generally aren't in the seminary target group from my understanding. (Though I agree, if girls are going to sign a pledge, let the boys sign one, too about forgoing a chosson watch or expensive menorah or similar equivalent.)

Also the reason why so many girls are deadset on kollel lifestyle & supporting their husband is because they either went to sem or were heavily influenced by BY teachers who went to sem! And what they may not realize is their seminary teachers and administrators make it look very easy because they themselves are living a nice lifestyle afforded by the pricy tuition of seminary students. (Obviously there are exceptions but the sem owners, top administrators, and in demand charismatic Sem teachers tend to live nicely, in nice Israeli neighborhoods and apartments.) And their BY teachers can afford to stay in teaching while their own husbands are in kollel because they come from a wealthy background and are getting parental help.

amother

Lily

Tue, Dec 28 2021, 2:45 pm

amother [ Almond ] wrote:

I don't feel as passionately as you
I do know that the girls won't want to go. They want other teachers besides the ones who teach in the high schools.

And they should be opening upper Bais Medrash Yeshivos in America.
Corona made people think.

Chayalle

Tue, Dec 28 2021, 2:47 pm

amother [ Hosta ] wrote:

I don't think making the most of it while burdening parents to such a crazy degree is something we should support. I also don't think girls should be burdened with jobs, while managing their high school curriculum, to come up with this kind of money. We aren't talking about some extra for spending money and buses anymore. We're talking crazy high tuition. It's beyond ridiculous already.

shabbatiscoming

Tue, Dec 28 2021, 2:48 pm

amother [ Firebrick ] wrote:

I 100% agree that sem should not be tgis thing that is a requirement at all. Thats just crazy.
But that being said, for many it is so much more than a wasted year. Just because the girls you know said it was a waste, it most definitely is not for everyone.