Harav Fuerst regarding seminary

amother

Jetblack

Tue, Dec 28 2021, 2:53 pm

Chayalle wrote:

BTW what's this about a jewelry takanah?

Some camp gave a huge mussar schmooze to the girls last year or the year before about parents struggling with finances to marry off kids so someone started a written pledge where they could sign that they agreed when the time came they'd only get a ring (maybe a fake one, I don't recall) or some such. I could be wrong but I think it was a chassidish camp.

Chayalle

Tue, Dec 28 2021, 3:00 pm

amother [ Jetblack ] wrote:

Oh wow. Totally OT, but I think as parents we should encourage girls not to sign anything quickly.
I remember sometime back there was this move to sign that you will limit the size of your wedding lists. I didn't sign it. I mean, what do I know. What if my girls married someone from a HUGE family, does that mean I get no one. I don't rush to pledge things.

amother

Eggshell

Tue, Dec 28 2021, 3:03 pm

Perhaps I am not qualified to comment on this as I am Chabad and as mentioned above our seminaries cost under $20k (I believe it was $15 in my day which was over 10 years ago). However, I think 2 things: seminary, particularly in Israel, is a special experience, and there may need to be a mindset shift in girls or a frank conversation about expectations and what parents are able to contribute.

I grew up pretty poor and never expected my parents to contribute anything to seminary; we never actually had that conversation it was just understood on my end. I babysat throughout high school and paid for most of seminary (FAFSA and MASA did the rest), and even managed a second year. My parents did supply very minimal spending money and I lived very simply. I went to a shliach for Pesach (in Israel). I don't think I bought falafel once! My seminary didn't allow babysitting but in my shana beis I was able to get a tutoring job in the local elementary school since my Hebrew was good enough and that helped. And, I had a fabulous time and it absolutely shaped who I am today in ways high school simply did and could not.

Nowadays, the local seminaries have really upped their game and are viable options, but if a girl really has her heart set on an Israeli seminary, I think it should be a conversation. I also don't know what the seminaries are spending $30k on (in Chabad circles parents rage at the $17k or whatever it is these days but end up paying or having their daughters contribute as I did), but if there are costs that can be streamlined, certainly that should happen as well. It's a 2 way street.

I also 100% agree with the girls not being the korban idea. Now I'm home with a bunch of little kiddies b"h b"h. Seminary definitely gave me, both from the learning and all the other experiences, fuel and "charge" for all these years, and when will I get them next? When my kids are older (in another 15 years) and I can maybe steal away a week to go with my husband? It certainly won't be the same!

amother

Hosta

Tue, Dec 28 2021, 3:06 pm

amother [ Melon ] wrote:

For most girls, seminary is just a straight year of camp. Which is nice, but really, really not a necessity.

I do agree that seminary is important for a very academic or studious girl who will grow from it.

So - we’re in agreement. I certainly see no need for a year of camp (at an outrageous expense). But for girls, who are going to the academically rigorous seminaries out there and who are going to work hard and learn a lot - it’s a great experience that should be encouraged - for those who are able to make it work.

essie14

Tue, Dec 28 2021, 3:06 pm

My seminary year was far from a waste. It was incredible.
I would never have stayed in my hometown for another year of learning from the same teachers. I was exposed to amazing teachers and girls from all over the world.
Halfway through the year I made the decision that I would make Aliyah. I was meeting families who were actually living in Israel, not honeymooning young couples who were supported by their parents.
I was in seminary on scholarship, 100% of my spending money was earned by me from summer and after school jobs.
That year was the result of blood, sweat and tears and I made the most of it.
I wouldn't be living the life I am today without it.
I also won't be sending my daughters because we live in Israel Smile

amother

Peach

Tue, Dec 28 2021, 3:14 pm

amother [ Lily ] wrote:

Oh my.
This.
I'm also a former Chicagoan.
Even if Chicago opened a seminary, most girls would not go. They would go to Lakewood or Brooklyn for 20k including dorm and travel expenses.
Seminary I not just Grade 13. Girls want to meet new friends, be exposed to new teachers.
If Chicago opens a seminary, I can tell you who will be the teachers. The same exact women teaching in HSBY and BYHSC.

Why aren't they making more standard Yeshivos for boys in America.

Plenty of girls in Chicago have nowhere to stay in NY, and their parents can’t afford Israel. If you make it, there’s an audience and I applaud Rabbi Fuerst’s initiative. Believe me, he’s the one getting the calls from crying parents and trying to help them raise the money or recover from the debt of it.

It won’t be year 1, it may be year 5, but it will take off.

And huh to your last comment? The good boys mostly go to yeshiva in Lakewood. In fact, most of the yeshivish boys do NOT go to Israel. It has a name of being hefker. It’s also way cheaper.

amother

Almond

Tue, Dec 28 2021, 3:17 pm

amother [ Hosta ] wrote:

Why does it have to be academically rigorous to make it worth it? Why can't it be easygoing and yet very inspiring, where they will learn a great deal, gain a great deal, make keshers with their rabbis and teachers for life - their school work won't be hard, but their inner work and growth will be. Seminary is not only for the studious girls, and those who go to less "academically rigorous" seminaries can very must still have a phenomenal year of growth and not just a year of camp.

amother

Peach

Tue, Dec 28 2021, 3:17 pm

amother [ Almond ] wrote:

I was adding up all of the years of learning the boys get, including a few years in Israel, with the ONE year our girls get. Also, yes I can compare what we've paid for already 2.5 years of post high school dorming and mesivta tuition, now the Mir (which is cheaper but not incomparably so), and the cost of yet more years learning post Mir in the States, or to continue in Israel, which ever he decides. Oh, and the extra airfare each time he comes home and goes back. It's an expense, a massive one.

And I am wondering why our girls are always the ones who are the korbanos.

Omg so tell your son, just like I told mine, that he’s NOT coming home for pesach. It’s very simple. You’re enabling these bad behaviors and then wondering why these exist.

amother

Almond

Tue, Dec 28 2021, 3:20 pm

amother [ Peach ] wrote:

Omg so tell your son, just like I told mine, that he’s NOT coming home for pesach. It’s very simple. You’re enabling these bad behaviors and then wondering why these exist.

Ok, so you are finding one aspect of my post and ignoring the rest. The main question.

Which is - why are our girls the korbanos? Over and over again. Why?

amother

Peach

Tue, Dec 28 2021, 3:20 pm

amother [ Iris ] wrote:

But I also have a relative who owns a seminary in Israel and they employ lots of their family members and they all seem to be living very nicely. I have no idea how much they're making but it looks like it's a nice profit.

Who cares? Israelis aren’t allowed to make money? I hate to break it to you, but high school and elementary schools owners/principals are also living very nicely, and those are NOT optional. Why should we fagin our own American principals and Rebbes and not Israel ones?

amother

Peach

Tue, Dec 28 2021, 3:23 pm

amother [ Almond ] wrote:

Ok, so you are finding one aspect of my post and ignoring the rest. The main question.

Which is - why are our girls the korbanos? Over and over again. Why?

You’re wondering why your stepson is an entitled brat. I can’t answer you. My son works hard every Pesach and helps cook cholent and fry chicken before every shabnos. He sweeps and cleans after meals. He works every summer and has his own spending money to pay for his own cell phone and other expenses. He is not allowed to flit back and forth to and from Israel, and he also started college summer courses so that he can earn a living and support his future family.

My sons and daughters are being raised as equally as I can manage, and I hope I am raising them to be wonderful spouses that contribute equally to their own households.

amother

Jetblack

Tue, Dec 28 2021, 3:23 pm

amother [ Peach ] wrote:

Those are the for profit ones. There are still community day schools that do not have an "owner" and are non profit. Ironically the girls of my elementary BY Principal didn't go to sem in Israel because they couldn't afford it. Cool

Chayalle

Tue, Dec 28 2021, 3:23 pm

amother [ Lily ] wrote:

My husband in Brisk the same year, my in-laws said came out to 15k. They paid tuition. Dora separate. Many meals weren't provided. Insurance. Tickets. Home for Pesach because EVERY SINGLE BACHUR GOES HOME. Separate for tiyulim during bain hazmanim. Trips to the kosel and tzfas (our seminary took us to the kosel every 3 weeks). Seforim.

Why aren't they making more standard Yeshivos for boys in America.

I'm surprised at this. I'm probably just a few years older than you are. My DH learned in Mir, and I highly doubt my inlaws paid anywhere near that for his costs.

amother

Melon

Tue, Dec 28 2021, 3:25 pm

amother [ Almond ] wrote:

Ok, so you are finding one aspect of my post and ignoring the rest. The main question.

Which is - why are our girls the korbanos? Over and over again. Why?

I responded to every one of your points. Go back and read.

Girls, by far, are not the karbonos in my yeshivish community. Which gender leaves the house at 7 and comes home at 9? Which gender has to get up early for minyan every single single day while the other gender is allowed to sleep late? Which gender has school every Sunday and which one doesn't? Which gender has color war, plays, rosh chodesh breakouts and more? Which gender has tiyulim built into their seminary experience and which one doesn't?

Boys have a chiyuv to learn. Girls don't. If that reality bothers you, take it up with the Ribono shel Olam.

amother

Peach

Tue, Dec 28 2021, 3:26 pm

amother [ Mistyrose ] wrote:

So who's putting him up for Pesach?

If Israel continues these lockdowns, the school will allow the dorms to stay open and we can take it from there. Otherwise, there are options.

The problem becomes when everyone decides their kid has to come home. If a group of them stayed, magically pesach would happen for them in Israel if enough parents and boys put their heads together. Boys are very capable when they have to be. More so than the girls for pesach - girls have to be with a family, boys can run their own seder.

Mollie

Tue, Dec 28 2021, 3:38 pm

amother [ Almond ] wrote:

Ok, so you are finding one aspect of my post and ignoring the rest. The main question.

Which is - why are our girls the korbanos? Over and over again. Why?

How are they Korbonos? The education system itself (run by women) is causing the issues. Why can’t the seminary charge 15k? Go on a few less trips.

Why is it such a pressure for a girl to get into a high school? To get into a good camp? To get a date???

The system is stacked against the frum girl. No idea how to change it. Very sad.