Speak no Evil | Imamother

Fox

Fri, Dec 31 2021, 2:22 pm

allthingsblue wrote:

You assumed that victims don’t come forward for fear of being community fodder when in fact what they fear is denial, lauding their abuser, shaming, being ostracized, etc.

Talking about the case in the context that it happened- A abused B - is not what they fear.

There are lots of reasons a victim might choose not to report abuse.

The most empowering message we can send is, "We'll take your story seriously and we won't use your painful experience as entertainment or even as a cautionary lesson without your permission."

allthingsblue

Fri, Dec 31 2021, 2:22 pm

jkl wrote:

I respectfully disagree - and I'm not assuming.

You are assuming. Even if you are an abuse survivor and you feel that way, other abuse survivors don’t feel that way. What they fear is the denial, gaslighting, shaming, threats etc.

jkl

Fri, Dec 31 2021, 2:22 pm

taketwo wrote:

When I hear silencing of victims, which as a victim, and all the victims I KNOW, find extremely painful, the assumption is those people are not victims. Unless they state otherwise.

I should hold back, but I can't help myself here. - Isn't that the perfect example of an ignorant assumption?

Rubies

Fri, Dec 31 2021, 2:23 pm

allthingsblue wrote:

That's not an assumption. There are many who don't because they don't want to be community fodder. That's a fact.
There are many victims who are believed, aren't ashamed, are supported and choose to keep their privacy intact.

All these victims might be more open to share if they would be secure in the knowledge that others can listen and respect their privacy simultaneously. That's not happening yet.

taketwo

Fri, Dec 31 2021, 2:24 pm

[quote="Fox"]Precisely who are these mental health professionals advocating that victims should be outed within their communities against their will and that every abuse victim should be treated the same?

On the contrary, the psychologists who've worked with the special Chicago bais din that handles issues of abuse have consistently said the opposite -- that victims need to do what's right for *them* -- not what makes it easier for others to "process."

How do I know this? Because we've had a number of asifas -- for which the yeshivas even cancelled kollel sedorim -- where this was addressed. Far more informative and factual than people gossiping about individual abuse cases.[/quote]

The bolded is a twist of my words. I never said that and have refuted that. Mental health professionals see it as beneficial to openly discuss the fact that sx abuse happens. They see it as detrimental to call it gossip and shut it down. As is my experience too

allthingsblue

Fri, Dec 31 2021, 2:26 pm

Fox wrote:

Who is being entertained? If you are, then you are correct- don’t talk about it.
Most of us are not.

As far as permission: can survivors chime in? (For the record, real names of survivors are not usually used by people who are using the situation as a cautionary lesson or an expose on the abuser - usually an alias is used for the victim - whereas the people who are pro abusers take the names of the victims and publicize them and shame them. )

jkl

Fri, Dec 31 2021, 2:27 pm

allthingsblue wrote:

You are assuming. Even if you are an abuse survivor and you feel that way, other abuse survivors don’t feel that way. What they fear is the denial, gaslighting, shaming, threats etc.

Sorry, I am not assuming. Because I never said or assumed that people don't feel this way or fear that. I just pointed out the survivors can equally feel the other way too - that becoming community fodder holds people back from coming forward.

It is very individual. So stating with such simplified certainty that community gossip will be the road to resolve this is just wrong. In many cases, it actually makes things worse. If your method hurts a healthy portion of the victim, it is NOT the right way. Fox pointed out many ways that handle these situations in a much better fashion, so no need to repeat them there.

Fox

Fri, Dec 31 2021, 2:29 pm

allthingsblue wrote:

You are assuming. Even if you are an abuse survivor and you feel that way, other abuse survivors don’t feel that way. What they fear is the denial, gaslighting, shaming, threats etc.

These are all legitimate fears -- which is why communities need an infrastructure to handle abuse cases.

But they're not relevant to this thread. Having everyone gossiping or even publicly processing does nothing to assuage the real problems faced by abuse victims and has the potential to re-traumatize them.

Nothing we say can dress up or excuse the fact that needless chatter about tragedies -- any kind of tragedy -- is a horrible aveira.

taketwo

Fri, Dec 31 2021, 2:30 pm

jkl wrote:

Nobody said it's the only road. The road for many of is to process and deal with this is by talking about it (without gossiping, we are not gossiping.) Why are you blocking that road just because it is not your road? Why are you and fox trying to shut us up? If it's not your road, take the highway. Don't read the 'gossip'

allthingsblue

Fri, Dec 31 2021, 2:33 pm

Fox wrote:

It’s not needless. For many, it’s vital. Especially in 2021-22 when the primary form of communication for many is the internet.

Many survivors are asking for this to be addressed. They are not afraid of being retraumatized. They are retraumatized when they see abusers lauded as holy.

jkl

Fri, Dec 31 2021, 2:35 pm

taketwo wrote:

Because talking about it doesn't need to be public talking about it. There are ways to talk and discuss without all the public fanfare. Once its done in that public manner, it becomes gossip and not just talk.

No one is blocking any road to talks. We are pointing out the public talks is gossiping and has a much greater tendency to hurt victims than it does to produce change.

If it is really and truly all about the victims, then we would all take a giant step back.

taketwo

Fri, Dec 31 2021, 2:36 pm

jkl wrote:

Looks like there is only your way.

dancingqueen

Fri, Dec 31 2021, 2:37 pm

Why discuss what happened? Because sunlight is the best disinfectant. Secrecy and shutting down conversations in the name of lashon hara allows abusers to thrive and continue their abuse. Because we want to show survivors that if they come forward they will be supported, not degraded and shamed as they have been in the past. Because we don’t want an abuser to have the last word, as he has tried to.

Fox

Fri, Dec 31 2021, 2:39 pm

taketwo wrote:

[The bolded is a twist of my words. I never said that and have refuted that. Mental health professionals see it as beneficial to openly discuss the fact that sx abuse happens. They see it as detrimental to call it gossip and shut it down. As is my experience too

Except that no one -- not a single poster, including me -- has said that we shouldn't discuss abuse in general.

What we are saying is that endlessly discussing a specific case and attempting to tease out the details to the point that friends and neighbors could identify a victim against his/her will -- is a gross violation of the victim's rights and serves no useful purpose.

Why do you think I yammer endlessly about the special bais din in Chicago -- to the point that everyone is sick of hearing about it? Do you think it's because I minimize abuse or don't believe victims? No. It's because I value real solutions over complaining.

If your community hasn't had an asifa on the topic with qualified psychologists speaking, that's where to start -- not discussing details of a high-profile case on Imamother or even IRL.

allthingsblue

Fri, Dec 31 2021, 2:39 pm

jkl wrote:

I haven’t seen any victims say they are hurt by public talking about abuse. They are hurt by public denial of abuse, idolizing abusers, and shaming victims.

As far as change- all the public pressure has brought change to my community. Slow and steady.

jkl

Fri, Dec 31 2021, 2:43 pm

allthingsblue wrote:

I have heard it - and I stand by that opinion for myself. Maybe you should join some support groups to hear how people were more fearful of the community talks than dealing with their abuse. It was easier to deal with the abuse for a mere hour(s) of the week, than deal with being the talk of the town for every waking moment. Go ahead, go talk to some victims, then come back and report here.

Also - how is not shaming victims to be the name on everyone's lips? Talking, analyzing and 'teasing out those little details' just piles up the shame to nth degree.

Fox

Fri, Dec 31 2021, 2:44 pm

allthingsblue wrote:

Which is precisely why we shouldn't be talking out it. There is no universe in which it is appropriate for anyone to be discussing guilt or innocence. I'm constantly shocked that anyone would even venture an opinion. There is zero point to chatting about whether a specific individual is guilty or innocent -- and definitely no toeles.

Again, the point is not that we shouldn't discuss abuse. The point is that it adds nothing to chat about the details.