Speak no Evil | Imamother

allthingsblue

Fri, Dec 31 2021, 11:46 am

jkl wrote:

I have heard it - and I stand by that opinion for myself. Maybe you should join some support groups to hear how people were more fearful of the community talks than dealing with their abuse. It was easier to deal with the abuse for a mere hour(s) of the week, than deal with being the talk of the town for every waking moment. Go ahead, go talk to some victims, then come back and report here.

Also - how is not shaming victims to be the name on everyone's lips? Talking, analyzing and 'teasing out those little details' just piles up the shame to nth degree.

The abuse survivors I know feel differently than you. So both perspectives have validity.

as far as I know we don’t even know the names of the victims of the most recent case! Aliases were used. So their names are not on everyone’s lips.

jkl

Fri, Dec 31 2021, 11:49 am

allthingsblue wrote:

Thank you - that's exactly my point. That's why the response to each situation needs to be individualized, per the victim's preferences. If the victim wants to go public, then that's the way for her. But you can't state that gossiping and chat about the details is the right way to handle all such situations.

And lets not kid ourselves. Those living in the victim's community (and probably all the surrounding areas), know exactly who the victim is, alias and all.

Fox

Fri, Dec 31 2021, 11:50 am

dancingqueen wrote:

Why discuss what happened? Because sunlight is the best disinfectant. Secrecy and shutting down conversations in the name of lashon hara allows abusers to thrive and continue their abuse. Because we want to show survivors that if they come forward they will be supported, not degraded and shamed as they have been in the past. Because we don’t want an abuser to have the last word, as he has tried to.

We do not support anyone by gossiping about them and involuntarily outing them as victims of abuse. Not every victim feels empowered by that, and I've never heard a mental health professional endorse gossip as empowering to victims in any way. On the contrary, the nature of victimization makes it far more important that individuals victims call the shots -- not those of us who wish to process tragic events.

It is perfectly possible to address abuse without discussing specific cases. Endless speculation is nothing more than gossip.

taketwo

Fri, Dec 31 2021, 11:56 am

Fox wrote:

You keep using the word gossip. We can't hear you when you use it. We've already said nobody is discussing details of the abuse. Nobody here has been telling over someone else's story. We've been talking about an abuser and the fact that there are victims. There is zero speculation who they are.

And the fact that many many housholds here have been involved with the abuser, by having his books in our homes. We've all been duped by him and feel betrayed by his books. We can call ourselves personally victimized and chose to talk about it here. You can chose to keep quiet. What you can not do is silent us by saying we are "amoral liars just cloaking their own awful middos."

Fox

Fri, Dec 31 2021, 12:00 pm

allthingsblue wrote:

This the point JKL and I are trying to make.

The more details that become public about a case, the more people will potentially recognize the victims. And that's neither necessary nor compassionate.

Some victims find it helpful be very open about their experiences. Others prefer privacy. Still others find it helpful to be open in some situations and more private in others. The point is that every victim is a unique individual; he/she has the right to decide if, when, and where to share experiences.

When we discuss details to the point that people can deduce the identity of a victim, rightly or wrongly, we are stripping that individual of his/her right to make the decision. The predator stole control from the victim initially, and we do so again with our excuses for gossip.

It's past time to stop confusing two different problems: taking abuse seriously versus discussing tragedies when there is no real benefit. We should take abuse seriously, and we should demonstrate that we do so by not treating it as a topic for speculation.

taketwo

Fri, Dec 31 2021, 12:02 pm

Fox wrote:

.I cant scream this loud enough NOBODY IS DISSCUSSING DETAILS OF THE ABUSE

mommy3b2c

Fri, Dec 31 2021, 12:04 pm

jkl wrote:

Totally agree with you on this. And I believe the latest threads on this site all support your point. Supposedly, they're all about 'toeles', or 'raising awareness', or 'forward fixes', but all the posts are either full of gossip, bashing Rabbis, and attacks. It's as you say, people want to gossip about so they're cloaking themselves under some sort of self-righteous cover and act in an indignant manner when called out. They then try to turn the tables on you and call you all kinds of names, such as deniers, promoting abusers, and what not.

The funny thing is they don't even realize they're using the exact same tactics that the abusers themselves use to manipulate discussions.

Agree as well and I said as much in some other threads. In real life, all the people who I admire and look up to and are the type of people to actually do everything in their power to help abuse victims are not talking about this endlessly. They acknowledged when the story broke. Quietly told their children and got rid of the books and internally thought of ways that they can be aware and help protect our children. All the people I know who speak Loshon hora non stop are ranting and raving and blabbering, blah, blah, blah...they don’t care about anybody. They just like to talk.

It’s interesting though and it kind of proves a point.

iyar

Fri, Dec 31 2021, 12:09 pm

Fox, you keep carrying on about the evils of gossip. I think it's something we can all agree on. I haven't seen any gossip about this here on imamother. I haven't seen speculation or soapboxes. I haven't heard take two, Mommyg8, b chadash or anyone else gossiping. You're so busy listening to your own voice that you've made yourself unable to listen to anyone else.
I still think it's awful you called women amoral liars and secondary predators. I haven't been on imamother as long as you. I've met many women here who have different views than me on lots of things but I've never come across any amoral liars or women with predatory tendencies. Even if you have and even if you feel you're equipped to judge other women, with your amazing gift of eloquence I'm sure you can find less offensive ways to express your judgement of others.

taketwo

Fri, Dec 31 2021, 12:11 pm

mommy3b2c wrote:

Can't I do both? Throw out his books, talk to my kids and process publicly? Does it have to be one or the other?

Fox

Fri, Dec 31 2021, 12:15 pm

taketwo wrote:

Nonsense. There's been endless speculation as to his guilt or innocence. There have certainly been plenty of discussion that could lead people who know the individuals involved to deduce the identity of the victims. The excuse that no one has published their names is just insulting.

Sorry, but I do not accept that owning and even enjoying someone's books counts as "victimization" if the individual is later discovered to have significant moral failings. In fact, attaching such a word to that experience is deeply invalidating and diminishing to those who have endured abuse personally.

If someone needs to "process" events in light of her personal experiences or some other reason, the proper way to do that is privately -- and certainly not casually.

Your bottom line is that people want to chat about tragedies regardless of the cost to others, and I should mind my own business and let them do so in peace. Sorry, no. I've seen zero toeles in any of these threads -- only excuses.

taketwo

Fri, Dec 31 2021, 12:16 pm

Fox wrote:

Nonsense. Two can play at that game.

momsrus

Fri, Dec 31 2021, 12:19 pm

taketwo wrote:

Can't I do both? Throw out his books, talk to my kids and process publicly? Does it have to be one or the other?

At least by speaking about it, you are admitting this is about you processing it and not about the victims. And not everyone that doesn’t want to process this publicly endlessly is a rapist protector.

taketwo

Fri, Dec 31 2021, 12:23 pm

momsrus wrote:

I never said I have an issue with those who don't want to talk about.

I have issues with those who stop others who do want to speak about it.

I believe everyone should do what's right for them. (Of course that's only if it won't hurt others. - Talking vaguely without details of the abuse fit those parameters)

Fox

Fri, Dec 31 2021, 12:29 pm

iyar wrote:

I still think it's awful you called women amoral liars and secondary predators. I haven't been on imamother as long as you. I've met many women here who have different views than me on lots of things but I've never come across any amoral liars or women with predatory tendencies. Even if you have and even if you feel you're equipped to judge other women, with your amazing gift of eloquence I'm sure you can find less offensive ways to express your judgement of others.

Sorry, but I consider "amoral" and "secondary predators" the absolute nicest things I could say about what I've seen both in recent threads and over time.

If you or others weren't a part of those threads, then my words don't apply to you. And if you want to go back through every thread on abuse and address each time a nuanced reply was met with accusations that a poster "doesn't care" about abuse -- go for it.

But I'm sickened by it. I'm tired of people making selfish excuses for what is nothing more than chatter that trivializes tragedy. I'm tired of posters making dishonest accusations against anyone who doesn't defend their right to out victims and speculate about individual guilt or innocence. I'm tired of people claiming how much they care while simultaneously insinuating (or stating outright) that anyone who doesn't gush over their "care" is some kind of monster who supports abusers.

I've outlined repeatedly what my community does. If your community has found alternative ways of addressing the problem, by all means, share. But I'm not going to pussyfoot around and make excuses for the stuff I see in threads related to specific incidents of abuse. The vast majority of it is inexcusable.

momsrus

Fri, Dec 31 2021, 12:29 pm

taketwo wrote:

I have issues with those that insist on speaking about it and making believe they’re speaking about it for the victims sake. Those that are going on and on are doing it for themselves.

Fox

Fri, Dec 31 2021, 12:35 pm

taketwo wrote:

When a specific incident is discussed at length, details almost always emerge that make potential identification of victims a real possibility. You say you want individual victims to do what's best for them, but by encouraging extensive talk about a specific incident, you're dramatically increasing the chance that details will emerge that serve to identify a victim -- and then it's too late.

Talk about abuse as much as you want. Talk about the best ways to combat it, prevent it, inoculate kids against it, etc. None of that requires or justifies infringing on the rights of victims.