The problem with frum novels

PinkFridge

Thu, Jan 06 2022, 9:25 am

aweinback wrote:

In one of the magazine serials two weeks ago, an entire conversation consisted of two people talking like this:
“...”, she replied
“Oh, .......”, she replied.
“Yes,” she replied.
The word replied was used as a dialogue tag about six or seven times in a row.
(As opposed to said, asked, answered....)

.

I'm not sure what story you're referring to, but also, dialogue tags on each line aren't necessary.

zaq

Thu, Jan 06 2022, 9:26 am

My pet peeve with frum novels is the frequent errors in spelling, grammar, syntax, usage and vocabulary. (BTW I find these in "intellectual" frum books as well, but they are more frequent in novels.) A word to authors: Don't use a big word just to use a big word. Look it up in the dictionary first, then check with a language expert to make sure you're using a word with the precise shade of meaning you want. Just choosing a word from a list of synonyms doesn't cut it.

Here's an example: I want to say that a person is unusual. Not crazy as in mentally ill, just offbeat. And I like alliteration, so I want something to go with "Daniel was decidedly different. Definitely ________." So I look up a list of synonyms and find "deviant." Great word! "Daniel was decidedly different. Definitely deviant. No wonder addlepated Adel adored him."

Err..no. You don't mean what you just said there. "Deviant" does mean "deviating from the norm" but it is used mostly to describe individuals whose s&xual/social behavior is perverted. You would not use it to describe someone who, say, serves dessert first and soup last.

And as a pp already noted, frum writers tend to stick in random ten-dollar words in three-dollar stories. Even when the words are used correctly, they are jarring because they don't match the language level of the rest of the work. Studding a HS-level work with Ph.D. words is like sewing diamond buttons on an old housecoat. It just doesn't work, and both the buttons and the housecoat suffer.

Last edited by zaq on Thu, Jan 06 2022, 10:00 am; edited 1 time in total

amother

Heather

Thu, Jan 06 2022, 9:30 am

I am no writer and hope If any writer sees this it comes across as constructive.
For me it’s the overly dramatic descriptions of how characters are feeling
I.e. “the room started spinning and she grabbed a chair to stop herself from falling” or “her body turned to ice and she stood there breathless, the icy cold wave threatening to drown her”
These descriptions always make me feel heavy and anxious for some reason and not because I am empathizing with the character.

amother

Thu, Jan 06 2022, 10:40 am

PinkFridge wrote:

I'd love to read it.
Have you read Ruchama King Feuerman's books?

I know the question was for someone else but I'll answer anyway. I read one of her books. Prose was great and I think it was really deep. It took me a while to get through it though, maybe because my book has small letters but also there's not too much action.

Kiwi13

Thu, Jan 06 2022, 10:50 am

Big words aren’t necessary most of the time. Fancy language almost always detracts from the story. My goal is for readers to forget they’re reading. I want them to get pulled so deep into the story that the words themselves melt away. You can’t do that with frilly prose that calls attention to itself instead of the story.

BrisketBoss

Thu, Jan 06 2022, 11:07 am

zaq wrote:

A word to authors: Don't use a big word just to use a big word. Look it up in the dictionary first, then check with a language expert to make sure you're using a word with the precise shade of meaning you want. Just choosing a word from a list of synonyms doesn't cut it.

This is such a pet peeve of mine!! I haven't read these books but sometimes people argue with me online and attempt to sound intellectual by using big words they don't know. Maybe this works on people who also don't know the words. But me? I will respect you more if you use small words that you are comfortable with. That looks intelligent. Misusing big words looks stupid.

BrisketBoss

Thu, Jan 06 2022, 11:08 am

Kiwi13 wrote:

This too. Often the smaller word is just plain better.

zaq

Thu, Jan 06 2022, 12:20 pm

So much frum fiction sounds as if it was written by an excitable fourteen-year-old. The root of the problem is, I think, that most people learn their jr. HS vocabulary lessons too well. English teachers want students to be comfortable with big words and assign exercises in which students use as many big words as possible. Using multiple synonyms in a single sentence garners extra credit.

Well, that's all good and fine in English class, but it doesn't translate well into mature writing. A vocabulary exercise sounds like a vocabulary exercise. As I heard just last week in a professional writing seminar, unless one is writing poetry, the language should not call attention to itself. The reader should be aware only of the message.

It is ironic that so many people seem to retain their JHS vocabulary lessons while forgetting the lessons on the mechanics of writing aka basic composition. Yet one can write quite well with a modest vocabulary, while even with a vocabulary the size of Jeff Bezos' bank account, one cannot write well without mastering the mechanics.

baltomom

Thu, Jan 06 2022, 12:47 pm

Really enjoying this thread! Another thing I want to add is that some frum novels focus on one thing going on the main character's life but neglect all the others. Sometimes I'll read a book about, say, a woman's business venture, and wonder where her 5--or 7--or 9 children are in all this. They are barely in the story and when they are seen they are one-dimensional little angels. The author spends a lot of time fleshing out one part of the character's life and forgets about all the others.

amother

Periwinkle

Thu, Jan 06 2022, 1:20 pm

[quote="aweinback"]In one of the magazine serials two weeks ago, an entire conversation consisted of two people talking like this:
“...”, she replied
“Oh, .......”, she replied.
“Yes,” she replied.
The word replied was used as a dialogue tag about six or seven times in a row.
(As opposed to said, asked, answered....)

Roadblocks. Its like that EVERY week. There was a different thread about this serial. I think most readers enjoy the suspence and don't realize just how bad the writing, content etc. is.

This serial would NEVER fly in a secular magazine.

Honestly, it's off putting to see it in the Ami every week, do they think they can get away with it just because most will fall for it?

amother

Wandflower

Thu, Jan 06 2022, 2:26 pm

I was thinking about this thread and I feel we're being a bit harsh on jewish novels and holding up non jewish fiction as the superior and ultimate in literature. But as a self confessed bookaholic, I have certainly read a fair share of badly written non jewish fiction, as well as some excellent ones.
But it occurred to me that maybe the percentages are the same. I'm making up the numbers for ease of example but I know they're completely wrong. So imagine there's 500 non jewish novels published in a year. 10% of those are badly written, subject to all the cliches and tropes possible. That's 400 books that are still a good read.
If for that same 500 non jewish, there are only 50 jewish novels, and the same 10% is on them, that's only 40 books that are worth reading. So there's simply much less choice and the bad books are magnified.

mommyhood

Thu, Jan 06 2022, 2:46 pm

watergirl wrote:

My theory (and you do not have to look farther than imamother to see this) is that the majority of buyers of these books are the ones who state so often "I will not bring this into my home where my kids will read it" instead of "I will bring it into my home and not allow my children to read it". I think if parents would teach their children boundaries, frum literature could address the tougher topics.

This sounds nice in theory and is definitely an issue in our communities but even if we were better at that I don’t see it being worth it for the author/publisher. How big of a market could ‘adult’ frum novels have. Frum novels are expensive and since they’re trying to sell to such a niche market as it is I would think most authors wouldn’t want to invest in something so specific. I mostly buy novels that both I and my teens can read because I get more bang for my buck.

amother

Salmon

Thu, Jan 06 2022, 3:01 pm

I only skimmed, so maybe I missed this, but I think Leah Gebber's work is phenomenal! Her books are well written with great character development, historical accuracy, and plot lines. She manages to convey many emotions and feelings despite the parameters of frum fiction.