The problem with frum novels

theoneandonly

Thu, Jan 06 2022, 3:02 pm

zaq wrote:

My pet peeve with frum novels is the frequent errors in spelling, grammar, syntax, usage and vocabulary. (BTW I find these in "intellectual" frum books as well, but they are more frequent in novels.) A word to authors: Don't use a big word just to use a big word. Look it up in the dictionary first, then check with a language expert to make sure you're using a word with the precise shade of meaning you want. Just choosing a word from a list of synonyms doesn't cut it.

Here's an example: I want to say that a person is unusual. Not crazy as in mentally ill, just offbeat. And I like alliteration, so I want something to go with "Daniel was decidedly different. Definitely ________." So I look up a list of synonyms and find "deviant." Great word! "Daniel was decidedly different. Definitely deviant. No wonder addlepated Adel adored him."

Err..no. You don't mean what you just said there. "Deviant" does mean "deviating from the norm" but it is used mostly to describe individuals whose s&xual/social behavior is perverted. You would not use it to describe someone who, say, serves dessert first and soup last.

And as a pp already noted, frum writers tend to stick in random ten-dollar words in three-dollar stories. Even when the words are used correctly, they are jarring because they don't match the language level of the rest of the work. Studding a HS-level work with Ph.D. words is like sewing diamond buttons on an old housecoat. It just doesn't work, and both the buttons and the housecoat suffer.

1000% agree. I remember reading a few pages of a frum novel once and thinking that the genre was "I have a big vocabulary and I'm going to prove it to you!"

amother

Thu, Jan 06 2022, 4:27 pm

amother [ Wandflower ] wrote:

I was thinking about this thread and I feel we're being a bit harsh on jewish novels and holding up non jewish fiction as the superior and ultimate in literature. But as a self confessed bookaholic, I have certainly read a fair share of badly written non jewish fiction, as well as some excellent ones.
But it occurred to me that maybe the percentages are the same. I'm making up the numbers for ease of example but I know they're completely wrong. So imagine there's 500 non jewish novels published in a year. 10% of those are badly written, subject to all the cliches and tropes possible. That's 400 books that are still a good read.
If for that same 500 non jewish, there are only 50 jewish novels, and the same 10% is on them, that's only 40 books that are worth reading. So there's simply much less choice and the bad books are magnified.

That's possible. the point of this thread is not ranting about frum fiction but pointing out what could make it better. Correct grammar is pretty basic.

amother

Thu, Jan 06 2022, 4:35 pm

amother [ cornflower ] wrote:

As a frum author, I'm reading this half cringing waiting to see my books bashed. I actually agree with most of your points and agree with many(especially the censorship one). It is a very real tightrope we walk.

Don't sweat it, writing can be tough Smile

I don't know how the process was when you published, but it seems to me like the novels don't get enough constructive feedback from editors and readers.

amother

Lawngreen

Thu, Jan 06 2022, 9:58 pm

Didn't read the whole thread but for me it's that they are all so cliched. Same plot, same phrases used (how many times have you read "she padded into the room" in a frum novel?? Laugh

).
And many are really not well written.

Some of my favorite authors are Etka Gittel S., Miriam Zakon, Eva Vogiel, Leah Gebber... can't think of more this min.

amother

Zinnia

Thu, Jan 06 2022, 10:08 pm

amother [ Periwinkle ] wrote:

Roadblocks. Its like that EVERY week. There was a different thread about this serial. I think most readers enjoy the suspence and don't realize just how bad the writing, content etc. is.

This serial would NEVER fly in a secular magazine.

Honestly, it's off putting to see it in the Ami every week, do they think they can get away with it just because most will fall for it?

Yes! This bothers me every week, especially since it comes right after Riva Pomerantz’s serial. She is a talented wordsmith.

amother

NeonYellow

Thu, Jan 06 2022, 10:12 pm

amother [ Lawngreen ] wrote:

Didn't read the whole thread but for me it's that they are all so cliched. Same plot, same phrases used (how many times have you read "she padded into the room" in a frum novel?? Laugh

).
And many are really not well written.

Lol, I hate when that phrase is used, along with a character "waggling" their eyebrows. Or "smirking"--that verb is way overused in frum novels.

I'm reminded so much of the chapter in Up the Down Staircase when the teacher was trying to get it across to her student that it's ok to use the word "said" in your writing....you don't need to come up with 10 different dialogue words.
I also love the scene in the Emily of New Moon book where Mr. Carpenter critiques her writing and tells her to stop the italics in her writing, not to mention major cutting out of flowery descriptions<3

4everdiet

Thu, Jan 06 2022, 10:20 pm

amother [ NeonYellow ] wrote:

I loved those Emily books by L.M. Montgomery. Did you ever read her Pat of Silver Bush series?

Having grown up with secular books curated by my mom, I find it hard to enjoy frum fiction.

amother

NeonYellow

Thu, Jan 06 2022, 10:23 pm

4everdiet wrote:

I loved those Emily books by L.M. Montgomery. Did you ever read her Pat of Silver Bush series?

Having grown up with secular books curated by my mom, I find it hard to enjoy frum fiction.

Of course. I've read everything she's ever written, including her private journals that were published 15 years or so ago. She was a complicated, complex personality so her journals are fabulously interesting (if a bit depressing).

4everdiet

Thu, Jan 06 2022, 10:30 pm

amother [ NeonYellow ] wrote:

I never read her journals but I found her books were wonderful.

aweinback

Thu, Jan 06 2022, 11:17 pm

amother [ Goldenrod ] wrote:

I'd love to hear your criticism of my "novel" on imamother Smile

I love your story. And I love the way you write. You really have a gift!
I know you don’t plan on publishing “damsel” but I hope that you do publish something someday.

If I had to come up with something to criticize, it might be that Eli seems a bit too Mr. Perfect. (I have never met a guy with the emotional depth that he has, does such a guy exist in real life??)

amother

Goldenrod

Thu, Jan 06 2022, 11:29 pm

aweinback wrote:

If I had to come up with something to criticize, it might be that Eli seems a bit too Mr. Perfect. (I have never met a guy with the emotional depth that he has, does such a guy exist in real life??)

DH comes pretty close, although he has a very different personality than Eli. Smile

I imagine it isn’t THAT unusual, but men tend to hide that part of themselves, except maybe from their wives.

I guess the story would look very different with a more heavily masculine macho type!

(I’m also heavily influenced by Rachel Pomerantz, whose characters are very impressively self-aware, both male and female.)

aweinback

Fri, Jan 07 2022, 11:57 am

amother [ Goldenrod ] wrote:

I guess the story would look very different with a more heavily masculine macho type!

(I’m also heavily influenced by Rachel Pomerantz, whose characters are very impressively self-aware, both male and female.)

Yeah, I’d love to see Eli lose his temper and beat up one of the guards or something Laugh

Everyone has demons, we get to see Chava’s but what are his?

jeg

Fri, Jan 07 2022, 2:12 pm

I find they tend to be very heavy-handed. Show, don't tell. A little nuance/subtlety engages the reader. Also it is so boring to read about the same themes all the time. I want to read about worlds that are new to me. There also seems to be no self-awareness of falling into typical tropes for the genre. Good literature can (but doesn't have to) push boundaries on style, content, etc.

amother

Ecru

Fri, Jan 07 2022, 5:16 pm

The problem with frum novels is that either they don't deal with really real-life situations,* or they resolve them to a happy ending. In other words they're not realistic. I want to read a frum novel that doesn't necessarily have a happy ending or resolve everything into a neat little package with a bow on top. Life isn't like that. I want something that speaks to me with my real-life difficulties. I could rant on and on about this but I think I made my point.

*Other than Holocaust novels, and I want to read about more current issues

amother

Ecru

Fri, Jan 07 2022, 5:22 pm

singleagain wrote:

Censorship is a really big one. I couldn't even get my true story about my divorce/depression in it bc the publisher cut out so much I told the author to pull it from the book. Hello.. I'm not the only person to have those problems I'm sure and seeing them in a book could have helped someone but no.. it wasn't kosher enough? Guess what, life isn't kosher. Life is messy. We need to talk about how messy it can get and how to clean up the mess. Not pretend the mess never happened.

I'm REALLY sorry to hear this. So that's why, I guess, frum novels don't deal with real-life problems (as I said in my previous post). I hope some day you'll be able to tell your story in a book. You are so, so, so much on target - life is messy!!!!!

amother

Ecru

Fri, Jan 07 2022, 5:25 pm

sara_s wrote:

As someone who has written in the past for the Frum press, and is now trying to write a novel for the general press, the thing that was the biggest block for me in the Frum publishing world is the extreme censorship.
Good literature is about capturing reality. When the most personal and often most challenging aspects of life can't be written about, you're left with a much less potent and emotionally involving story. (For instance, even when writing about Shidduch dating, a popular Frum topic, you can't write about attraction. And with married couples, their bedroom life, which is a huge part of marriage, is entirely taboo. These are just examples, there's much more that is off limits). This gives the impression of watching characters on the stage instead of being inside their head.
Also- there are issues with our society, and part of what makes a lot of literature interesting, impactful, and meaningful is highlighting those issues. But again- censorship. The frum world is getting a bit better at discussing some topics, but many are still banned. (E g any criticism of rabbis' directives, or what gedolei yisrael said, or corruption within the system, and these are just some examples).

^^This!! A big bouquet Flower

to you for saying this.