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Forum -> Parenting our children -> School age children
Ds friends told him about CW, and he’s traumatized
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Bnei Berak 10




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jan 11 2022, 7:17 am
amother [ Butterscotch ] wrote:
I also wasn’t sure what to do with my 9 year old son who loved his books.
I think first I told him that he was niftar.
Then a few days later he asked me what his sisters were talking about when they were pulling the books off our shelves. He wanted to know why we have to throw out all the books.
At that point I told him that cw was a therapist and he did very inappropriate things to the children who came to him. Then he felt so ashamed that people found out. He was going to have to spend most of his life in jail and he didn’t want to. He did a terrible thing and decided to kill himself instead of doing teshuva and going to jail.
My son couldn’t believe it. He spoke about how terrible it is for a person to kill himself and I explained that the Torah doesn’t allow it and there’s no place in gan eden for a person who does this aveira. He kept asking me if it’s true that cw did these things to kids. I told him we’ll never really know the truth anymore but the rabbanim are saying it seems true and we shouldn’t read stories written by a person who did bad things. He kept insisting that the stories were good! He said no one else writes such good stories. I told him I’ll help him find some good books. I also told him that he’s not allowed to tell anyone about cw because some parents don’t want their kids to know and they would be very angry at us if their kids find out.
The next day I found him sitting by the computer typing. He said he’s writing his own book. He started off with “my name is Chaim and I live in yerushalayim. One day my friends and I were playing in the playground….”
I decided I’ll let him write like that but I’m going to encourage that he includes Hashem and yiras shamayim in his stories.
He was acting silly the other day and was fighting with his sister. He potched her and she screamed out- “you’re not allowed to touch my private part!” He yelled back- “so put me in jail for the rest of my life!” I was so sad when I heard that. Kids are so disturbed by this incident as we adults are as well. I still think it’s better that he knows from me rather than to eventually hear things from someone else. My son told me that his teacher took out a cw book to read a chapter of “that’s me, Tviki green”. A bunch of boys started yelling that we’re not allowed to read that book anymore! This is probably one of the heaviest things my son has had to deal with but bottom line- we’re dealing. It’s not easy but I think it’s much better to be the one to explain instead of hearing from others.

You should be proud that your daughter immediately reacted the way she said it! Flower
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amother
Latte


 

Post Tue, Jan 11 2022, 7:29 am
So sorry Op!
Yes this is a good reminder as well that we have to get out ahead of it.
Some good ideas here.
I applaud the schools and rebbaim who have helped parents formulate an age appropriate response.
hugs and hatzlocha
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amother
Melon


 

Post Tue, Jan 11 2022, 7:53 am
I told my son 12 we are throwing out his books because he touched children inappropriately ( as we discussed) and when people found out he was so embarrassed and ashamed that everyone knew so he killed himself which is not the way we deal with our problems. And that apparently cw was one of those " strangers" that looks normal but really sick and not normal on the inside. And because he hurt children in the worst way, we will be getting rid of his books we don't want anything to do with him.
Amother butterscotch, I love to see your son's coping skills of writing his own stories. Cw left for us his very last story- with- a- lesson that was his last chapter. "When bad people look normal and hurt others in a most perverse way and then don't face up to their own deed and traumatize a nation."
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notshanarishona




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jan 11 2022, 8:04 am
amother [ OP ] wrote:
Ds age 9 loves cw books. His school library still has them. When he wanted to bring one home, his friends told him that the books are assur since cw took a gun and shot himself in the head. He took it home anyways. Ds asked me about what his friends said. I honestly told him that the menahel decides which books are kosher and any books in his school library are good and allowed. I asked him what his rebbe said he said the rebbe wasn’t there then. He asked me if it’s true and I honestly told him I don’t know cw and never met him, but heard he was niftar and it’s very sad. Ds cried and had a hard time falling asleep tonight. He also had a nightmare when he finally fell asleep and came to sleep in my room. He’s having a really hard time with the concept, he keeps imagining this wonderful frum guy saying stories he loved and then shooting himself dead. How to I help ds process the trauma of what his friends told him? So far I’m trying to distract him by talking about happy things, but that not really dealing with the issue head on. And what if some kids educate him further about why he did it? Any advice?
Ds is very sheltered in general, dh and I didn’t discuss the cw issue with our kids since other than this kid, they don’t read it, and it didn’t seem necessary to open the discussion.

You are making a big mistake by making him think CW was a good man who committed suicide. It’s probably a lot less traumatic to hear CW was a terrible criminal but we didn’t know. When he was found out he killed himself. Suicide is a terrible aveirah but he was a bad evil person so we don’t want to read his books anymore .
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watergirl




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jan 11 2022, 8:07 am
OP, your son's experince is EXACTLY why I knew I needed to talk to my son about it before anyone else did. I knew Rabbi Yakov Horowitz would address the topic of how to talk to our kids so I headed over to his social media and sure enough, he did a live on that very topic. I told my younger son that CW hurt children and we could not keep his books. My 12 year old son, I told that he hurt children and then he did the ultimate avairah and took his own life, and we have to remove the books.

One of the reasons schools are removing the books is for exactly what OP's son experienced (and I am not saying I agree with this point) - that these books should not be launching ground for one child to start to talk about it to other children, which of course will happen.

OP, I highly recommend you go back and find the videos from Rabbi Horowitz and learn about having that hard talk, in an age appropriate way with you children. They need to hear the truth from us, their parents, and not on the street. This is true for all things, not just for CW and related topics.

My 12 year old was asking us some questions on topics that we were unsure how detailed to answer him. We asked his therapist and our rav and they both said the same thing - to give enough of an answer so he is satisfied and does not go looking on his own for more.


Last edited by watergirl on Tue, Jan 11 2022, 8:28 am; edited 1 time in total
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amother
Gladiolus


 

Post Tue, Jan 11 2022, 8:11 am
OP, what difference does it is only one child of yours who read CW books? Your son doesn't deserve an honest explanation because he is the only one who reads them?
Sorry, but what did you expect?
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amother
Camellia


 

Post Tue, Jan 11 2022, 8:15 am
A tremendous amount of the Torah worlds rabbanim (including Rav Moshe Shternbuch, Rav Aaron Feldman, etc etc) have said to discard the books. Why does your son's school still have them in the library??
And please please don't lie to him and tell him its not true. He'll realize very quickly and it will take a long time to regain his trust.
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Mamushka




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jan 11 2022, 8:55 am
amother [ Sage ] wrote:
maybe school should talk to class, "we dont allow discussing such scary stories, and we dont know if true"?

(rebbi/ morah)

I would distant such stories from young kids, it can be damaging short and long term.

This attitude will cause kids to become incapable of dealing with sad, disturbing things. Besides that the message should be, come to me with any question! I'm here to answer/discuss them.
Believe in your kids and give them tools to deal with things, which happen in life. Obviously you need to use age appropriate language and messages.
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amother
Cyan


 

Post Tue, Jan 11 2022, 1:18 pm
It’s honestly upsetting to me how many are focusing on his suicide being the biggest aveirah and telling children that. In the vast majority of causes, suicide is a result of mental illness. When the Torah says suicide is wrong, it’s not referring to people who aren’t in their right minds. The main focus should not be that he sinned by committing suicide.
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daffys




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jan 11 2022, 1:41 pm
amother [ Camellia ] wrote:
A tremendous amount of the Torah worlds rabbanim (including Rav Moshe Shternbuch, Rav Aaron Feldman, etc etc) have said to discard the books. Why does your son's school still have them in the library??
And please please don't lie to him and tell him its not true. He'll realize very quickly and it will take a long time to regain his trust.
because they have books written by non Jewish people who lived inappropriate lifestyles. We read literature stories in school whose authors were not kosher at all… the fact that cw was Jewish doesn’t change anything
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jan 11 2022, 1:49 pm
daffys wrote:
because they have books written by non Jewish people who lived inappropriate lifestyles. We read literature stories in school whose authors were not kosher at all… the fact that cw was Jewish doesn’t change anything


Not only was he Jewish but he made his living writing about people at their most vulnerable. For those who aren't keeping his books, one major reason is that he lost his moral authority, by preying on vulnerable people.
The people who are saying keeping his books are ok are mostly chutz la'aretz where they say they never considered him a moral authority, it was all entertainment anyway.
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amother
Glitter


 

Post Tue, Jan 11 2022, 2:01 pm
My son also came home that he heard he committed suicide by his sons grave by taking a bullet himself.

I sat down with both my kids (12 and 8)and starting explaining in a normal way what he did and if something like that ever happens to them they need to tell me!

Personally I've read clean books to my kids about body safety but I feel this gave me the opportunity to show them that any frum person can abuse...

I wish all parents teach kids about abuse...yes my husband was abused and maybe that's why im much more protective
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amother
Camellia


 

Post Tue, Jan 11 2022, 2:02 pm
daffys wrote:
because they have books written by non Jewish people who lived inappropriate lifestyles. We read literature stories in school whose authors were not kosher at all… the fact that cw was Jewish doesn’t change anything

Are you ACTUALLY equating living an inappropriate lifestyle or someone being "not kosher" (whatever that means ) with an author who abused numerous children from our greater community and then killed himself? In your brain are those the same things? Especially considering most of our children have heard the allegations and have a blurry idea of what this man did? Is that really the message we want our schools sending our kids- that we read books authored by child rapists?
And yes, the greater world does take childrens lit off the shelves when popular non jewish authors are accused of similar heinous things. of COURSE they do.
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daffys




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jan 11 2022, 2:04 pm
PinkFridge wrote:
Not only was he Jewish but he made his living writing about people at their most vulnerable. For those who aren't keeping his books, one major reason is that he lost his moral authority, by preying on vulnerable people.
The people who are saying keeping his books are ok are mostly chutz la'aretz where they say they never considered him a moral authority, it was all entertainment anyway.

Why was he EVER treated as a moral authority? A book writer is an entertainer only! We were given the Torah as our guide and this should be our only moral authority.
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Chayalle




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jan 11 2022, 2:05 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
Ds age 9 loves cw books. His school library still has them. When he wanted to bring one home, his friends told him that the books are assur since cw took a gun and shot himself in the head. He took it home anyways. Ds asked me about what his friends said. I honestly told him that the menahel decides which books are kosher and any books in his school library are good and allowed. I asked him what his rebbe said he said the rebbe wasn’t there then. He asked me if it’s true and I honestly told him I don’t know cw and never met him, but heard he was niftar and it’s very sad. Ds cried and had a hard time falling asleep tonight. He also had a nightmare when he finally fell asleep and came to sleep in my room. He’s having a really hard time with the concept, he keeps imagining this wonderful frum guy saying stories he loved and then shooting himself dead. How to I help ds process the trauma of what his friends told him? So far I’m trying to distract him by talking about happy things, but that not really dealing with the issue head on. And what if some kids educate him further about why he did it? Any advice?
Ds is very sheltered in general, dh and I didn’t discuss the cw issue with our kids since other than this kid, they don’t read it, and it didn’t seem necessary to open the discussion.


It's a shame. Had you discussed this with him beforehand, it likely would've mitigated his reaction. Perhaps in the future you might make different decisions, knowing that your kids aren't growing up in a bubble.

My 8th grader happens to also have loved some of his books. She particularly liked his "Stories straight from Avi's/Mommy's heart" series, to the extent that she begged me to keep them. We discussed why they are going off the shelf, and I used it as a springboard to once again review safety rules and why we have them. I hope you educate your son about this as well. Unfortunately, the world isn't sheltered, even if we want our kids to be.
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Chayalle




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jan 11 2022, 2:07 pm
amother [ Sage ] wrote:
I am probably not going to give a good answer, but

I would say to him I dont think its true.

why should a kid deal with images of guns and bullets?

I would just protect young kids from the crazy world out there as much as I can. Even if its not the honest truth. (dont talk to Yossi, I dont like his stories)

I would also call Yossis mom to ask her to ask her son to stop


This is what I would call Derech K'tzarah Shehi Arucah. Or basically, long term loss in the face of short term gain. Actually, pretty dubious gain. Would you want your kid to be in the position of ridicule, should he come up against peers who know the truth?
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jan 11 2022, 2:17 pm
daffys wrote:
Why was he EVER treated as a moral authority? A book writer is an entertainer only! We were given the Torah as our guide and this should be our only moral authority.


Therapists and guidance counselors used his books. He had a regular column in a respected paper and won awards.

Re the bolded: I don't get it what you wrote. We're supposed to respect teachers and leaders. We have a concept of mesorah and respect those who give over the Torah as our guide; we can't figure it out on its own and we're not supposed to. Years ago in a secular college a professor spoke about a day when it wouldn't be necessary for him to come to class; he could have a robot or video stand in. (Man, I'm dating myself. Truth is I remember someone in the late 70s tuning into the local PBS channel for college classes.) People in my class were really uncomfortable with this. They wanted him there. Yes, as Jews we have the concept of mesorah but I think there's a universal recognition of authenticity in transmission. (Google Beethoven's Kiss.) I could articulate it to them but chose not to. It was interesting.
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amother
Crimson


 

Post Tue, Jan 11 2022, 2:23 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
Ds age 9 loves cw books. His school library still has them. When he wanted to bring one home, his friends told him that the books are assur since cw took a gun and shot himself in the head. He took it home anyways. Ds asked me about what his friends said. I honestly told him that the menahel decides which books are kosher and any books in his school library are good and allowed. I asked him what his rebbe said he said the rebbe wasn’t there then. He asked me if it’s true and I honestly told him I don’t know cw and never met him, but heard he was niftar and it’s very sad. Ds cried and had a hard time falling asleep tonight. He also had a nightmare when he finally fell asleep and came to sleep in my room. He’s having a really hard time with the concept, he keeps imagining this wonderful frum guy saying stories he loved and then shooting himself dead. How to I help ds process the trauma of what his friends told him? So far I’m trying to distract him by talking about happy things, but that not really dealing with the issue head on. And what if some kids educate him further about why he did it? Any advice?
Ds is very sheltered in general, dh and I didn’t discuss the cw issue with our kids since other than this kid, they don’t read it, and it didn’t seem necessary to open the discussion.


If your son is this devastated when he doesn't have all info, imagine how devastated he will be to learn the truth when he is 15.
He will ask you "If you knew, why did you let me continue reading his books?"
Just tell him the truth so he can trust you in the future.
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daffys




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jan 11 2022, 2:33 pm
PinkFridge wrote:
Therapists and guidance counselors used his books. He had a regular column in a respected paper and won awards.

Re the bolded: I don't get it what you wrote. We're supposed to respect teachers and leaders. We have a concept of mesorah and respect those who give over the Torah as our guide; we can't figure it out on its own and we're not supposed to. Years ago in a secular college a professor spoke about a day when it wouldn't be necessary for him to come to class; he could have a robot or video stand in. (Man, I'm dating myself. Truth is I remember someone in the late 70s tuning into the local PBS channel for college classes.) People in my class were really uncomfortable with this. They wanted him there. Yes, as Jews we have the concept of mesorah but I think there's a universal recognition of authenticity in transmission. (Google Beethoven's Kiss.) I could articulate it to them but chose not to. It was interesting.

There is respect and there is moral authority. I respect Donald Trump for his accomplishments but he is not my moral authority. I can respect many people but I do not base my moral standards on them. My mesorah comes from my parents and my rav. A random respected gentleman/educator/rav will have my respect but I will not use his words to guide me. And therefore I don’t see what’s wrong with reading a book that a rapist wrote. If justice Kavanaugh will write a book will you ban it from schools?
And there are plenty of professors who aint saints. They might be removed but their books aren’t banned. That’s liberal wokeness.
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amother
Camellia


 

Post Tue, Jan 11 2022, 2:39 pm
daffys wrote:
My mesorah comes from my parents and my rav. A random respected gentleman/educator/rav will have my respect but I will not use his words to guide me. And therefore I don’t see what’s wrong with reading a book that a rapist wrote.

Surprised Surprised
I have no words.
This is not a random rapist from Yenem. I'm not even going to try arguing you on why this line of thinking is just beyond twisted.
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