Older woman picking on me for showing up at kiddush

amother

Pear

Wed, Jan 12 2022, 2:02 am

amother [ Feverfew ] wrote:

You can go two routes.

Smile and say nothing. This is the more dignified approach I think.

Or, end it. "That's right. I get here just for kiddush. By choice. It will be the same every week. Your disapproval has been noted. No need to comment on it ever again."

#2 is a really bad idea.

amother

Azalea

Wed, Jan 12 2022, 2:03 am

amother [ Pear ] wrote:

I agree. In my Shul there are always certain ladies who never come to daven but always show up for the kiddush and start to fress. I think it’s really tacky and people notice it.

Kiddush isn't a reward for davenning. We're not little children. It's a way for the community to get to know each other and socialise.

lovecouches

Wed, Jan 12 2022, 2:19 am

amother [ Pear ] wrote:

I agree. In my Shul there are always certain ladies who never come to daven but always show up for the kiddush and start to fress. I think it’s really tacky and people notice it.

So would you rather mother's with young kids come for the whole davening. Imo I think it's more tacky to bring young children for davening

amother

Melon

Wed, Jan 12 2022, 2:41 am

amother [ NeonPurple ] wrote:

What do you mean by taking away food ? I mean it's not like she is just randomly schnorering from a random place. She is eating from the kiddush her own shul is offering. When they ordered their food although they probably ordered enough for their members I don't think they had in mind to exclude those who didn't daven in shul. Am I mistaken ?

OP - May I ask - Do you pay shul annual membership?

From what I have seen, some who dont pay membership, also bring kids for Kiddush only
Free food.

it doesnt look good.

If you want community social over food, which is very nice, why dont you host in your apt/ house shabbos afternnon get together and prepare platters/ salads for the ladies?
We would all love to join!

Host ladies w young kids your kids age? for example. Refreshments by hostess.

Host a SEUDA shlishi ,you buy the food and have a nice social?

There are some who prefer others should buy, prepare, pay, and they come to eat. (and bring other family members to join)

Some wont say anything, but its noticed.

I have seen someone who came with a backpack and packs food Kidush cakes. She is not poor. they have 2 decent salaries. she comes just in time for kidush with her kids who have no interest in shul.

What do you think people think about it?

How about contributing/paying/ sponsoring Kidush?

amother

Melon

Wed, Jan 12 2022, 2:44 am

lovecouches wrote:

So would you rather mother's with young kids come for the whole davening. Imo I think it's more tacky to bring young children for davening

No.

During young years, you stay with kids home, playing.
If you want an outing, you walk to shul to pick up husband and you all walk together.

Coming in for free food with kids is not best taste.

Same as bringing kids to a weddings so you save a babysitter. (and get free food)

Elfrida

Wed, Jan 12 2022, 3:15 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

at our old shul where we used to live, which was a normal place, the women with young kids often came just in time for kiddush.

The thing is, this is only considered normal behaviour in some places. Are there other young mothers who are also waiting outside or coming just for the kiddush? If not, it probably isn't considered normal behaviour in your new community.

This woman is obviously outspoken, but she may be voicing what a number of people are noticing. In many places women with young children don't come to shul. Not for davening and not for kiddush. You have to decide if you want to be the one who turns up for kiddush or if you want to follow what seems to be the community norm and not come to shul until your children are older.

essie14

Wed, Jan 12 2022, 3:31 am

amother [ Melon ] wrote:

This is the oddest thing I've ever heard and I'm thankful I've never lived in a community where mothers with children are ostracized from the shul kiddush.

A wedding is a completely different occasion; one that you need to be invited to. No one needs to be invited to the shul kiddush.
Bad comparison.

ora_43

Wed, Jan 12 2022, 4:05 am

amother [ Melon ] wrote:

If you want community social over food, which is very nice, why dont you host in your apt/ house shabbos afternnon get together and prepare platters/ salads for the ladies?
We would all love to join!

I'm not OP, but I'm guessing the answer is, because that's way way more complicated than everyone just meeting up at a time and place where there's already a community event happening.

Plus - that wouldn't be good for the community! Then you're basically splitting it into two communities: the people who can daven, who meet up at kiddush, and the mothers of young kids, who meet up at an entirely different time and place.

For the OOT shuls I've seen, building community is a huge priority. Definitely worth the cost of the crackers and pickled herring (which is anyway being paid for by the shul families whether they daven or not. If anything, people who show up just for kiddush are getting less for their money than people who actually get to use a seat in shul).

But the truth is, it's the same here in Israel despite the community being massive. A kiddush is a social event. If people are just there to daven, they just daven and go home. Once they get cakes and soda involved, it's expected that a bunch of kids who weren't there for davening will show up. Nobody minds. On the contrary. All part of making good shul-related memories for the kids who hopefully will be making the minyan happen in another decade or so.

ImmaBubby

Wed, Jan 12 2022, 4:56 am

I am definitely seeing a divide here on the concepts of a Shul kiddush and socializing in general. I grew up with self- appointed gatekeepers who kept track of who came when and looked in disdain at those who came fashionably late for Shul but just in time for the kiddush. I haven’t thought of this in decades because nowadays all the Shuls I’ve attended ENCOURAGE families- members or not- to come, partake and enjoy. No one is counting how many black and white cookies you and your kids eat.
This woman is just holding on to the ‘70s...

lovecouches

Wed, Jan 12 2022, 5:11 am

I also live in Israel where it's not considered crazy to bring a young children everywhere with you. I do feel bad for the kind of communities that the mother can never take her kids anywhere. In my local nshei there is a shuir and it's totally normal to bring you baby. In our shul there is a men's kiddush every week. Most weeks I do bring my young son because he loves going to shul and getting a cookie and "davening"

Raisin

Wed, Jan 12 2022, 5:17 am

amother [ Magenta ] wrote:

I'm not that lady, but I'll be the voice of dissent. Not that I think this woman is doing the right thing; she's not. But I'll admit to resenting people who show up JFK (just for kiddush.) If your shul doesn't accommodate babies, don't go. Unless there's a simcha and the baalei hasimcha have invited people, and the purpose is for people to wish them mazal tov, why are you coming to shul JFK? What are you accomplishing? I could understand if you came in at the tail end of mussaf because your young child can't sit quietly for much longer than Aleinu and Adon Olam, then you were in shul to daven briefly and stayed for kiddush. Fine. But shuls need worshippers to fill the seats, not people coming for kiddush. It really makes a poor impression if you never daven there and always show up for kiddush.

Do you ever stop to think how many people you might be turning off from yiddishkiet with posts like this?

Raisin

Wed, Jan 12 2022, 5:33 am

I live in an OOT community and we actually really try to get that JFK attitude out of peoples heads. OP probably doesn't live in my community, since we have a kids room where mums and kids hang out. They might try and sit in shul for a few minutes until the kid starts making noise.

Anyway we love when people come to shul just for kiddush. I agree may be weird behaviour for a person without young kids to indulge in week after week after week. But completely fine for someone with kids. But, you never know - there are elderly people who tell me they can't come to shul because their carer comes to help them get dressed at a certain time and they don't want to come just for kiddush.

OTOH - working in a small community for many years, there are some people who will say awful things to others. Completely baffling to me but I see we have a couple of people like that right here on this thread. Those posters just clearly have no comprehension of what the point of a kiddush is. Or what community means.

shirachadasha

Wed, Jan 12 2022, 5:49 am

amother [ Pear ] wrote:

I agree. In my Shul there are always certain ladies who never come to daven but always show up for the kiddush and start to fress. I think it’s really tacky and people notice it.

In my shul there are men who leave during krias hatorah, the rov's drosha and any time there's a good discussion of politics or sports in the hall. Their wives are at home taking care of kids, setting up a seuda and squeezing in a shmoneh esray if they're lucky.
Who should be allowed to "fress" (in your description) at the kiddush?

lovecouches

Wed, Jan 12 2022, 5:50 am

Did anyone think of why there is a kiddush. Is it as a reward for davening nicely? Or is a way to foster a community spirit. If it's the first then yeah only come if you davened there if it's the latter then I would personally think the more the merrier. Unless you don't like young mothers and think they should be hidden from society LOL

rainbow dash

Wed, Jan 12 2022, 7:11 am

Here in Antwerp if there is no simcha there is a small kiddish just for the men. Usually herring and cake.

When there is a simcha it can be in the shul or if that place is too small, in a hall. Its advertised and everyone is welcome.

Most people like myself stay home from shul cause of the kids and when we do go to a kiddish of someone that I know we go out just for that. And we are encouraged to take something home as there is usually too much food. But I was at a wedding in Israel and my seat mate but food in a plastic cup wrapped up in napkins and into her purse. She said her DC was invited but didnt come.

amother

Ivory

Wed, Jan 12 2022, 7:17 am

Well this thread sure opened up my eyes! I am truly shocked!

I thought everyone would be in agreement on this one. In our shul and in any of the many many shuls I have attended in my travels EVERYONE is welcome at kiddish. People are encouraged to come encouraged to stay. Older people, not yet frum people, people with kids, relatives of those in attendance, and even dare I say it yup STRANGERS otherwise known as "people we do not know yet" or "people we have yet to befriend".

So to Op I say HOLD YOUR HEAD UP HIGH and don't even give this woman a second thought unless a bit of compassion for someone so steeped in negativity or limiting constricting beliefs.

Take it as an opportunity for growth. Your own. Like how do you want to handle this and take those tools forward with you into life. Think about what you want to model for your kid(s).

If you really have any doubts you can always speak with the rabbi and/or rebbetzin and check the mores of this community.

My guess is that ahavas yisroel is prioritized and connections and kindness.

hugs and hatzlocha