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Do you want to know when HS girls are cheating on your tests
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amother




Hyssop
 

Post Mon, Jan 17 2022, 5:57 am
amother [ Almond ] wrote:
But then there ought not be tests.

That would be more logical, yes. But practically speaking, I think the school model imported a certain structure by inertia that includes tests. It doesn't mean that many parents or administration truly care about the girls' level of mastery of the material. Many people will be OK with all the girls in the class receiving fictional 90's.
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amother




Hyssop
 

Post Mon, Jan 17 2022, 5:59 am
amother [ Outerspace ] wrote:
Actually most of those "justifying" cheating are saying the exact oppisite of this post . They are saying there is too much academic pressure and value for academics so what choice do girls have?

Which is totally not a new excuse.

The Chofetz Chaim in his introduction to Sefas Tomin written way over a hundred years in a total different society also says that liars and cheaters tend to justify their behavior with the excuse of society/my situation is such that what choice is there other than dishonesty?

Exactly. They think there is too much value on academics because they themselves don't value it, at least for girls.
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amother




Lemonchiffon
 

Post Mon, Jan 17 2022, 5:59 am
To the OP, I will answer your question in regards to parenting. Your dd needs this life skill. To handle "not fair", to learn about karma. Being a snitch is not a life skill. If the teachers are so naive and don't pick up on it, your dd needs to learn to do the right thing and not let others wrong actions eat away at her. She needs to learn confidence that everyone will answer after 120, what comes to them, comes to them. It is irrelevent to her.She will get what she deserves. It is a very important life skill. Tattling/snitching stems from a bad middah in this case. No one is in danger. And if she tells no one will improve from it.

She should hold her head up high, whatever grade she gets, knowing it was rightfully earned. Not worrying that some naive educator who cannot pick up on cheating will think of a different kid as smart when unrightfully earned.

Life is full of that. She needs to learn to not care and not compare. That leads to inner happiness.
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amother




Khaki
 

Post Mon, Jan 17 2022, 6:05 am
amother [ Emerald ] wrote:
I did not read all replies.

I was the student that studied for hours and hours and was still only able to get the 80%. So yes, sometimes I did cheat. It's definitely wrong to cheat. But please! no, BH no kid snitched on me about cheating. I deserved the 100% for effort, while some got the 100% without needing to study. I tried so so hard! So if after studying for HOURS, I finally sit down with the test paper and I still don't know it, I just felt so so terrible. I couldn't afford a big F !
I want to add that even when cheating, you can't possibly cheat all the answers! So the cheater won't get the 100%.
It would give her away one or two or even three answers.
I'm not encouraging cheating, but if a girl cheats, have rachmanus! Do not tell anyone about it.

OP, if your dd can get a 100% after studying, teach her to fargin other kids to also get a 100.
Just like the brilliant kid gets a 100 without studying, let the F student get the 80 with studying.



Can I give a similar scenario:

I was the business owner. I worked twice as hard as my competitor and put in twice as many hours, yet barely eked out a living while my competitor raked it in. So sometimes I did steal and cheat from others. It's definitely wrong to steal, but I deserved more $$$ for all my effort. I couldn't afford to live on my meager earnings.

I want to add that even when stealing, I couldn't steal at all occasions. So the thief won't get the full amount the competitor rakes in.


How is that different from your post?
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watergirl




 
 
 
 

Post Mon, Jan 17 2022, 6:14 am
I just wanted to add a note to hug and validate those who had such abusive homes, we all know they exist, where bringing home anything less than perfect was dangerous. You did not deserve that.
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Ema of 4




 
 
 
 

Post Mon, Jan 17 2022, 6:20 am
amother [ Midnight ] wrote:
Please read what I wrote in context.

What I tried to express was that an adrenaline boost enhances memory. Therefore, in my experience, the memory is sharper in an exam situation.

You best memorize a word, a name, a fact when you really need it. I will give you two examples:

I was asked in an oral exam: "Who is the italian foreign minister?" I did not know. So I was told the name. I will never forget this name.

When living in a student home, I needed a bookshelf, an israeli student was ready to give one away. So I wanted to ask her to give it to me, but I did not know the hebrew word for bookshelf. I tried to explain, and she said "Ah, sifria?" I will never forget that bookshelf is sifria. Usually, you need to forget a word 3 or 4 times, before it really sticks - sifria stuck immediatly.

So I think creating an exam situation has merit, because it boosts adrenaline.
But it has also merit to give the students the information they should learn in this exam situation, rather than letting them starve on their shortcomings.

I very much like the ABA approach (for autistic children), where students get a positive reinforcement, even if they were told the answer. they just have to repeat it. I think we should explore this approach for education in general.

Also, I fundamentally believe that it's unfair that I did not have to put in any effort to get good grades (except paying attention in class), while other students invest hours and hours and still can't make it.

However, I have to add that when I passed exams that really counted (highschool diploma, professional diplomas), it was always in a strictly controlled setting with external examiners, where cheating was made very difficult. I.e. if my classmates copied in school exams, it would not help them for the highschool diploma. Personally, I still would not react like OP's daughter, I would still think "good for him" if someone got through with cheating...

Also, I work in a profession where skill is obvious, so even if someone could cheat to obtain a diploma, it would not help them very much to get work in the field, their shortcomings would become obvious at the first job they do.

I disagree with your premise that learning when you have to (for example, cramming) makes the memory sharper. I have never figured out the rhyme or reason for why I remember some things and not others. Some things that we learned songs or acronyms for I remember, others I remember the acronyms but not how to apply them, and some I don’t remember at all. I am not a good test taker under normal testing circumstances. Sometimes I test better orally, sometimes not.
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Ema of 4




 
 
 
 

Post Mon, Jan 17 2022, 6:23 am
amother [ Dodgerblue ] wrote:
I agree with all your points on this thread, Dr Mom.
I do want to address this though. In some communities, a student’s ego and self worth can be largely based on academic performance. And that’s an issue we need to address.
As a teacher, it is exceedingly painful seeing very weak students struggle for years, work hard, and still not understand the material.
That is why I am a big proponent of different types of schools, including vocational. Why shouldn’t a 16 year old who is totally nonacademic not have the option of excelling at hairdressing or fashion school or carpentry? At plumbing or gardening?

Again, I abhor cheating and think teachers should not turn a blind eye. A grade should be an honest grade. A school should stand behind its grades. But at the same time, I think we need to offer our weaker students other alternatives. Not everyone can get a 60 even if they study 24/7. And that’s ok. There should be other respectable things to study during one’s high school years.

Of course, I don’t mean send kids to schools that will be considered second rate. I mean create a society where these schools are given the same resources and respect as the academic schools. I hear there are countries like that.

That is an issue that needs to be worked on within the community, but that doesn’t make cheating ok. (I know you said that, I’m just reiterating that it is a community issue that needs to be worked on.)
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amother




Dodgerblue
 

Post Mon, Jan 17 2022, 6:30 am
amother [ Lemonchiffon ] wrote:
To the OP, I will answer your question in regards to parenting. Your dd needs this life skill. To handle "not fair", to learn about karma. Being a snitch is not a life skill. If the teachers are so naive and don't pick up on it, your dd needs to learn to do the right thing and not let others wrong actions eat away at her. She needs to learn confidence that everyone will answer after 120, what comes to them, comes to them. It is irrelevent to her.She will get what she deserves. It is a very important life skill. Tattling/snitching stems from a bad middah in this case. No one is in danger. And if she tells no one will improve from it.

She should hold her head up high, whatever grade she gets, knowing it was rightfully earned. Not worrying that some naive educator who cannot pick up on cheating will think of a different kid as smart when unrightfully earned.

Life is full of that. She needs to learn to not care and not compare. That leads to inner happiness.


I actually agree with this. I wouldn't 'snitch' on classmates. But I can totally understand the op's daughter's resentment. And with the responses on this thread, you can see where her classmates got their cheating-is-fine attitudes. Their moms are right here posting.
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amother




Moonstone
 

Post Mon, Jan 17 2022, 6:36 am
amother [ Dodgerblue ] wrote:
Of course they are taking something away from her.
Being an Honors student in a school where everyone cheats is no honor. Word gets round, people know your grade means nothing.

Plus many many teachers do grade on a curve, even unofficially. And the student who got 85% on the test, and who is the star student in fact, is actually treated as a mediocre student because all the cheaters got 95.

In any case, as a teacher of decades, I am appalled at this thread. I have noted that cheating is no less common in frum schools than in secular (just like, lehavdil, cheating on a spouse). It's awful. YOu would expect more.

When I used to work in a frum school, the principal asked us to leave the room during an exam so that the pupils could see we trusted them. Right. Don't we have that saying, lehachshil iver? You don't put a stumbling block in front of a person. I don't get why frum communities are so hysterical that a magazine with a picture of a three year old girl doesn't enter the home (stumbling block, you know), but don't mind leaving a packed classroom to do a test without proper supervision.

Unless of course cheating on tests is no big deal in the frum world and they literally turn a blind eye.


This is only the case when the school is the type of school to make a big deal about an honors students.

Where I come from a girls grades are her own business and not publicized in either way.

Again, I do not condone cheating, but this is none of OP's daughters business.
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amother




Lemonchiffon
 

Post Mon, Jan 17 2022, 6:47 am
amother [ Dodgerblue ] wrote:
But I can totally understand the op's daughter's resentment.


Yes and the dd needs her mothers validation, empathy, praise and reinforcement that taking the high road is worth it, valuable, the right thing. It will strengthen her.
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amother




Cadetblue
 

Post Mon, Jan 17 2022, 7:07 am
I didn’t read through the thread and very likely OP has already heard the advice she needed but I’ll chime in-

1. I would, as the mother, call the teacher and alert her to cheating. Do not give specific names, just let her know that there are girls doing it and she should be paying more attention in the future

2. This is a good lesson to teach your daughter- there are many times in life that she will come across this feeling. Not necessarily with cheating or lying, which I’m sure she’ll experience as an adult too, but just the feeling of working really hard for something while someone else gets the same or better with no effort at all. It could be at a job where someone else exceeds beyond her because they have the right connections, even if they don’t actually deserve it, for example. I myself have felt this many times in my life. I need to remind myself, and you should teach your daughter this now, that we cannot always control other people and sometimes life just isn’t fair. But we at least know that we did the right thing and put in the effort we were supposed to, and that’s enough.

Even if she gets the same grade as those cheaters, she should be able to pride herself on knowing that she did that on her own through her hard work and determination. That grade will be really important to her because she earned it. Those other girls won’t think twice about it because they know it doesn’t really belong to them and they didn’t really deserve it. Teach her to let go of the anger because she’s still coming out on top.
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ora_43




 
 
 
 

Post Mon, Jan 17 2022, 11:07 am
amother [ Impatiens ] wrote:
Case in point- a student who was sure she would be valedictorian- she was an above average student because of a good memory thahkb”h blessed her with, she put in zero effort , and had an attitude. She was not chosen- you should have seen the fit she threw. But another student who rightly deserved it was chosen.

How is this a case in point?? Having a good memory isn't cheating!

Sorry, this story really bugs me. A girl managed to get top grades with zero effort, and that's her problem? She's the one who deserves to get knocked down a peg?

If a girl is doing that well with that little effort, the school failed her. She should have been given more challenging material.
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amother




Chambray
 

Post Mon, Jan 17 2022, 2:15 pm
I would never cheat and im happy most posters agree with that. but unfortunately in our community people are cheating ALL the time! Yes when you hire someone you cant lie! and advertiseing that your looking to hire without saying that its a subbing job thats cheating too! Paying one person less than another for the same job!(even if they never find out.)
How many people take advantage of younger girls just because their more naive? The girls are learning this from somewhere. I personaly remember camp being the married staffs babysitter till all hours of the night and paying $300 for that too!.
There was a thread awhile back asking about machaneinu that was locked after someone mentioned the quizzes during shiur and others denied it you dont think a girl who went to that camp noticed the fact that every post saying that they dont give quizzes was a jewish woman lying?
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