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Daughter has to buy friend new camera?
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amother




OP
 

Post Mon, Jan 17 2022, 9:13 pm
13 year old DD went on a class trip. Her friend brought a camera with her (the school warns kids that they bring at their own risk). She set it down somewhere after looking at it (thinking the girl would take it) and it got lost. Does she owe the girl a new camera?
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Congresswoman




 
 
 
 

Post Mon, Jan 17 2022, 9:22 pm
I don’t think so. It was the girls responsibility not to lose it. Girls lose and break cameras all the time. She will get it replaced soon I’m sure.
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amother




DarkOrange
 

Post Mon, Jan 17 2022, 9:23 pm
I think so, sounds like she was holding the girl’s camera and didn’t give it back to her. She lost it
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amother




DarkCyan
 

Post Mon, Jan 17 2022, 9:24 pm
This is actually probably a Halacha question.
Best to ask a Rav.
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amother




Offwhite
 

Post Mon, Jan 17 2022, 11:03 pm
My high school daughter was holding someone's phone and it accidentally slipped out of her hand. It was a fluke and the whole front crackec and it was 600 shekeks. She paid it because she felt it was the right thing to do. Her friend actually didn't even want her to pay because she barely did anything wrong. It didn't even fall very far she was sitting down. So they both felt it was just a fluke. Could be that she would have asked and told that she didn't have to but I feel like you never lose out by doing a little bit more than you need to. If your daughter was looking at her camera and set it down I don't see how it wasn't her fault. If I was looking at someone's phone to look at pictures I certainly would not just put it down when I was done I would give it to her.
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tweety1




 
 
 
 

Post Mon, Jan 17 2022, 11:04 pm
It's really a question for a rav but I would think she does. Her friend let her use it. It was due to her lack of judgment thinking that her friend will take it that it got lost. But for the fact, if your daughter would've handed it straight to her it wouldn't have gotten lost. This is what your daughter was thinking. But she can't think for her friend. Her friend now has to think the same thing. Ok. She set it down. Lemme go get it. For all you know, the friend was relying on your daughter to hand it to her. Not to set it down someplace. Imo, your daughter had the responsibility for safe guarding it till the friend gets it back.
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Reality




 
 
 
 

Post Mon, Jan 17 2022, 11:27 pm
This is a halachic sheilah to ask a Rav as others have said.

On top of that, it's a friendship question. Is your daughter going to lose a friend over this? Losing a camera is not only the physical camera. It's all the pictures saved on it that weren't printed or saved on a computer yet. Her friend is probably just as upset about that than the actual camera that can be replaced. If your daughter values this friendship she should be genuinely upset with herself and want to replace it.
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amother




OP
 

Post Mon, Jan 17 2022, 11:37 pm
I clarified with DD. She set it down in the place she picked it up from, so it would have been logical that the girl take it from there. It could have been the case that the girl would have left it behind whether or not DD touched it in the meantime.
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amother




Snowflake
 

Post Mon, Jan 17 2022, 11:41 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
I clarified with DD. She set it down in the place she picked it up from, so it would have been logical that the girl take it from there. It could have been the case that the girl would have left it behind whether or not DD touched it in the meantime.

Did she use it or just look at it? If you pick it up, look at it for a minute, and put it down in that same spot - no.

If she picked it up, used it, then put it down but the girl didn't know she'd put it down - yes. If she was using it she should've returned it to her friend, not put it down in a place where she might not look again.
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amother




Snowflake
 

Post Mon, Jan 17 2022, 11:42 pm
tweety1 wrote:
It's really a question for a rav but I would think she does. Her friend let her use it. It was due to her lack of judgment thinking that her friend will take it that it got lost. But for the fact, if your daughter would've handed it straight to her it wouldn't have gotten lost. This is what your daughter was thinking. But she can't think for her friend. Her friend now has to think the same thing. Ok. She set it down. Lemme go get it. For all you know, the friend was relying on your daughter to hand it to her. Not to set it down someplace. Imo, your daughter had the responsibility for safe guarding it till the friend gets it back.

I lost my camera when I was 19. I'm 33 now and still wish I had those photos.

I don't care about the camera itself though.
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watergirl




 
 
 
 

Post Tue, Jan 18 2022, 3:38 am
amother [ OP ] wrote:
I clarified with DD. She set it down in the place she picked it up from, so it would have been logical that the girl take it from there. It could have been the case that the girl would have left it behind whether or not DD touched it in the meantime.

Did your daughter ask her friend if she may touch her camera?
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amother




Iris
 

Post Tue, Jan 18 2022, 3:48 am
Yes she should pay. She was responsible for it. Unless she told the girl I'm putting it down.
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amother




Bone
 

Post Tue, Jan 18 2022, 4:31 am
I’ve heard stories like this and the girl didn’t pay
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watergirl




 
 
 
 

Post Tue, Jan 18 2022, 5:18 am
amother [ OP ] wrote:
I clarified with DD. She set it down in the place she picked it up from, so it would have been logical that the girl take it from there. It could have been the case that the girl would have left it behind whether or not DD touched it in the meantime.

In addition to my first question (I asked if your daughter had permission to touch the camera), I have a few more and one comment.

One of the first things you said in your OP was:
amother [ OP ] wrote:
(the school warns kids that they bring at their own risk).

If your daughter was the one who brought a camera - if SHE was the one in the place of the other girl, would you tell your daughter, "oh well, you knew you were bringing it at your own risk, so you are out of luck here"? You are seemingly making that statement because you believe the onus is on the one who brought the camera at her own risk, as opposed to the one who touched it.

Also, what is the cost of buying a new camera? Is it worth the friendship?

Lastly - there is an ENTIRE tractate in regards to losses and damages. This is really a great opportunity for your daughter to see you asking a rav.
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amother




Lily
 

Post Tue, Jan 18 2022, 5:40 am
No, I don't think she has to pay. She was not a paid shomer.
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simcha2




 
 
 
 

Post Tue, Jan 18 2022, 5:46 am
If it were my dd, I'd expect her to pay.

She was responsible for something belonging to someone else and that comes with the onus of care.

That is the middah I'd like her to learn from this.

To me, this is a teachable moment. How do we care for things? How do we care for other's possessions? How do we take responsibility for our actions? How can we be a good friend?

(Conversely, if it were my child's camera that got lost, I'd encourage them to be dlkz. Things happen, it was an accident,,gamzu l'tovah, relationships are more important than things).
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amother




Burlywood
 

Post Tue, Jan 18 2022, 5:57 am
a girl brings a camera. she puts her camera down on a table. friend takes it to look at it, and puts it back. It disappears. I dont see how your daughter is responsible..
Was she asked to watch the camera?
If someone asks you to borrow a stroller, and you say, sure . its in my backyard - feel free. then they return it to your backyard, and someone steals it. Is it your responsibility if thats where she kept her stroller to begin with?
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Chayalle




 
 
 
 

Post Tue, Jan 18 2022, 6:18 am
This is a sheilah for a Rav.

I just want to say, I have a good friend who is the daughter of one of Lakewood's well-known Poskim. She told me that as a young girl, her father taught them to be careful when assuming responsibility for something. Someone asks you to watch something for them. What's the big deal? Well, you could be held responsible for something. Don't jump to be a Shomer Chinam.
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tweety1




 
 
 
 

Post Tue, Jan 18 2022, 8:05 am
amother [ OP ] wrote:
I clarified with DD. She set it down in the place she picked it up from, so it would have been logical that the girl take it from there. It could have been the case that the girl would have left it behind whether or not DD touched it in the meantime.

The only way she isn't responsible is if she asked her friend for permission to use and specifically told her that she's putting back in the same place she took it from.
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justforfun87




 
 
 
 

Post Tue, Jan 18 2022, 8:30 am
Halacha or not from an emotional perspective I would be embarrassed NOT to offer the money. You place blame on the girl because she brought the object in the first place but honestly your daughter seems in the wrong to me.
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