Why don't women w cooking hobby businesses need supervision?

amother

Sun, Jan 23 2022, 8:14 am

I have a question about various women in our community who have basically "hobby businesses" selling food that they're cooking out of their kitchen. For example, one woman sells challahs and side-dishes / dips for Shabbat. Another sells cheesecakes for Shavuot and various other baked goods throughout the year. They're obviously doing this mostly as a hobby and for fun, and while they may be making some sort of money from it I can't imagine they're making much if any when you consider their time and all the hidden costs.

None of these women have a mashgiach in their personal kitchen. Everyone knows them to be frum women who know the laws of kashrut, and everyone (including me) buys and eats their stuff without question. Our rebbitzen even buys the cheesecake lady's cheesecakes and serves them at the Shavuot kiddush.

My question is: WHY is no supervision/mashgiach required for this sort of cooking hobby business?

I'm just curious to know why. I always thought the purpose of supervision for a restaurant was: 1) you might not personally know the owner in order to trust their kashrut, and 2) even if you know the owner, there's a financial incentive for them to cut corners if they're running a business. Is that correct? If that's right, why is no supervision required for a "hobby business" run out of a woman's kitchen? Do we figure she's not getting rich off it so there's not that same financial incentive to cut corners on kashrut as a restaurant would have?

amother

Dustypink

Sun, Jan 23 2022, 8:26 am

In Israel, you cannot get a hechsher on a home-based business. The Rabbanut simply won't allow it. You can choose to buy from someone on your own, though it's generally not advised, because although you can eat in the kitchen of someone you trust, once there's a business transaction, the rules change. I don't buy from private sellers.

amother

Sun, Jan 23 2022, 8:28 am

WitchKitty wrote:

I never thought of #2,
because if I trust someone enough to eat their food, I also trust that they're not cutting corners.

Off topic to my question, but don't people think oversight and fences are a good thing for for-profit restaurants and catering companies? I think it's a good thing, just as there should be oversight of shul finances so even one rabbi or president we all love and trust knows someone is watching. An otherwise honest person might be tempted to cut a kashrut corner in an "emergency" when catering for a big event, that kind of thing.... I've always heard we have supervision because of the profit incentive.

Elfrida

Sun, Jan 23 2022, 8:46 am

Many people advertise that all ingredients are a certain hashgacha. After that it's up to you whether you trust them. In most cases they don't want to seriously invest in a business and the expenses involved in getting supervision would consume any profits.

amother

Apple

Sun, Jan 23 2022, 8:50 am

Many people in my community who do this have a hashgacha. I always ask before ordering. If I’m buying for a simcha or event, I’ll only purchase with hashgacha. If I’m just getting dessert or cake for my family at home I have no problem buying from someone I know with. I hashgacha.

That said, by many Simcha’s in my neighborhood, people will often send home baked goods over for the kiddish/Bris/Shalom Zachor, whatever. No hashgacha just a neighbors cake.

shabbatiscoming

Sun, Jan 23 2022, 8:54 am

amother [ Dustypink ] wrote:

If a home business moves out of their home they do get a hechsher.
Or its just word of mouth and asking what hechsher is used.
Its funny because in my community there are a few home based catering companies. And they all do nicely. People just trust their hechsher.

NotInNJMommy

Sun, Jan 23 2022, 8:57 am

I think #2 is more of an issue.

Conflicts of interest are a real human condition, even for upstanding, reasonable, ehlrich people. That's a major reason for having third party hashgachah.

(I'm not commenting on when/where to require or accept personal "hashgachah" on paid catering here, but the fact that it's someone's business does change the human dynamic.)

dankbar

Sun, Jan 23 2022, 8:58 am

In my community, years ago, the community was small, people knew each others and trusted each others, even restaurants & bakeries had no hechsher, and neither did home businesses. Everyone trusted the heimishe owner, who oversaw his small place. Nowadays things changed. Most halls will not allow outside food & the caterers order the cakes & miniatures for the simcha & their masgichim will only allow to bring in stuff with a hechsher, so home businesses were forced to get hechsher. I am not sure if they give one on a home kitchen, therefore these home cooks, bake out of a commercial kitchen, separate than their home.

amother

Dustypink

Sun, Jan 23 2022, 9:02 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

Of course, if you move to a commercial kitchen, you can get hashgacha. The problem is a home kitchen, where anyone has access. The Rabbanut won't agree to puts its stamp on that because there's no way to maintain adequate supervision. It's a totally reasonable position to take.

There are home cooks and bakers who advertise that they only use food with the following hechsher, and then you can decide whether to buy from them. Strictly speaking, one should not buy from someone without outside supervision, but often people decide that since they trust the person already, they will buy. Ask your local rabbi what he recommends.

dankbar

Sun, Jan 23 2022, 9:05 am

Years ago it was mostly family & friends sending their homemade goods to a simcha, no hashgacha.

Simchas were simple.

Then it got more lavish & out of hand, with lots of competition, so changes were made.

Things changed, about hall not accepting either to comply with takanos that every simcha should be same & not overdone, so hall orders or because of kashrut.

amother

Hyssop

Sun, Jan 23 2022, 9:06 am

In my community there are numerous home food businesses. My father is the community kashrut administrator.
He would have to check the ingredients. If it’s the same kitchen used for personal as well, then they check the hechsher used for meat and milk.

Since COVID they have 2 choices: a Mashgiach that needs to be able to come spot check without prior notice or a camera that is always on that the mashgiach can check.

Many are not ok with a mashgiach coming to spot check or checking cameras. Those who really want a hechsher go to one of the local caterers under the hechsher and cook either earlier or after the caterer is done with his kitchen. They usually pay a small fee to use it after 5 pm.

One woman was saying recently on a community woman’s group that if you trust me then you’ll buy my products. If you don’t then your won’t. When I asked some pointed questions she didn’t know the answer or that those things were an issue. So many trust her but there were some issues. She was able to rectify one thing.

One point they may not realize is are they using meat or dairy oven can affect the food. Our custom is food cooked in a meat oven (used for meat within 24 hours) cannot be eaten dipped into dairy, so you can’t dip your cookies into chocolate milk or coffee. She never saw it as an issue and many do like to dip their cookies. She now adds a sticker to her baked goods stating baked in a fleishig oven.

amother

Bluebell

Sun, Jan 23 2022, 9:10 am

Op, what do you mean by "need" supervision?

If people are buying from her because they trust her, she doesn't need anything.

If she wants to grow her business beyond her immediate acquaintances, then she'll "need" a way to prove to other people that she's keeping kashrus at a certain level, and will need to get a certificate of supervision.

As a consumer, halacha requires me to eat kosher food but there aren't laws (to my knowledge) regarding supervision. That only comes into play when I don't personally know or trust the standards of the person making the food.

amother

Hyssop

Sun, Jan 23 2022, 9:14 am

I know of a Rav Hamachshir who’s own child wouldn’t get a hechsher. The standards were all the same. A rule for all applies to the child as well. No home business. Pay the caterer a nominal fee as you start out to use their kitchen. Once the child gets an exemption, then what about the neice and the neighbor and family friend… ain ladovor soif. So there are no exemptions made.

little neshamala

Sun, Jan 23 2022, 9:15 am

Do people require a hechsher when they get a chessed meal voluntarily cooked by someone in their community? What about all the times people eat out by other families for shabbos meals? Or let their kids eat birthday cake etc by a class bday party in someone elses home?

The reality is that quite often people are making the decision about whether or not they trust someone else's kashrus standards, and go ahead with it, so why would a home business be any different?