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I named my baby...
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SixOfWands




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jan 25 2022, 6:53 pm
allthingsblue wrote:
Their hopes are completely misplaced.


Why?

My mother (a"h) is gone a good many years now. There's no great grandchildren. Yet (b'li ayin hara). But I know that my brother's kids aren't naming after her. Its either my kids, or she'll never have a name. So yes, when my daughters, and daughters-in-love (as my friends say) are someday blessed with daughters, I will be hoping and praying that one honor her.

And if they don't, I'll keep my mouth shut.

But why don't I get to hope for that? Why is that wrong?
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amother
Tan


 

Post Tue, Jan 25 2022, 7:11 pm
SixOfWands wrote:
Why?

My mother (a"h) is gone a good many years now. There's no great grandchildren. Yet (b'li ayin hara). But I know that my brother's kids aren't naming after her. Its either my kids, or she'll never have a name. So yes, when my daughters, and daughters-in-love (as my friends say) are someday blessed with daughters, I will be hoping and praying that one honor her.

And if they don't, I'll keep my mouth shut.

But why don't I get to hope for that? Why is that wrong?


Hoping that someone will honor her is different than placing your personal nechomah onto your grandchildren's name.
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amother
OP


 

Post Tue, Jan 25 2022, 7:59 pm
nachasmom wrote:
I did not read the whole thread. However, I am curious if you did not want to give the respect of calling the baby by this name, why give it in the first place. You accomplished nothing but hurting the grandparents.


Because it would've been more hurtful to go back further generations and not give the name at all.

I wanted to name after this grandparent, but do I must call my child a name I don't like?
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amother
Phlox


 

Post Tue, Jan 25 2022, 10:31 pm
Let's put kibud av v'eim aside for a moment. It's important, and we can't put it aside, but I want to discuss something else.

If calling your child one name in your parents presence causes them pain, then you are not allowed to do it. Not because of kibud av v'eim but because it is a lav to hurt another person.

If it is so hard for you and disturbing to call your child by the name your parents want in their presence for 30 minutes a day or a week or whatever it is, then you need to explain that to a dayan.

That's really why you should ask a shaila.
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amother
RosePink


 

Post Tue, Jan 25 2022, 10:37 pm
amother [ Phlox ] wrote:
Let's put kibud av v'eim aside for a moment. It's important, and we can't put it aside, but I want to discuss something else.

If calling your child one name in your parents presence causes them pain, then you are not allowed to do it. Not because of kibud av v'eim but because it is a lav to hurt another person.

If it is so hard for you and disturbing to call your child by the name your parents want in their presence for 30 minutes a day or a week or whatever it is, then you need to explain that to a dayan.

That's really why you should ask a shaila.


What about the pain towards the child.
I have 2 names. Say Chana Rochel. And Rochel was the grandparent name.
I despise the name Rochel. I ask everyone to call me Chana or Chani. I know there's nothing wrong with Rochel, but I despise it.
I also know that I was forced to be called Chana Rochel to my grandparents their whole life.
It was diminishing and painful. It told me that I as a person didn't deserve to be happy, I had to serve as a prop without any likes and dislikes.
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amother
Zinnia


 

Post Tue, Jan 25 2022, 10:41 pm
amother [ Phlox ] wrote:
Let's put kibud av v'eim aside for a moment. It's important, and we can't put it aside, but I want to discuss something else.

If calling your child one name in your parents presence causes them pain, then you are not allowed to do it. Not because of kibud av v'eim but because it is a lav to hurt another person.

If it is so hard for you and disturbing to call your child by the name your parents want in their presence for 30 minutes a day or a week or whatever it is, then you need to explain that to a dayan.

That's really why you should ask a shaila.


This is simply not true and I have spoken to many rabanim that say what you are saying is incorrect. And all you are doing is encouraging religious abuse which is not a Torah value.
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amother
Peach


 

Post Tue, Jan 25 2022, 10:45 pm
amother [ RosePink ] wrote:
What about the pain towards the child.
I have 2 names. Say Chana Rochel. And Rochel was the grandparent name.
I despise the name Rochel. I ask everyone to call me Chana or Chani. I know there's nothing wrong with Rochel, but I despise it.
I also know that I was forced to be called Chana Rochel to my grandparents their whole life.
It was diminishing and painful. It told me that I as a person didn't deserve to be happy, I had to serve as a prop without any likes and dislikes.

Who says the child won’t like the name? Why are you projecting?
I have a relative whose called a different name by one side of the family. She loves that she has a special nickname.
Oh, and she’s a big enough person that she’s happy to make her family happy
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DustyDiamonds




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jan 25 2022, 11:05 pm
For a couple of weeks I wondered if BestBubby was my mother, so many of their views are identical! (Then BB posted something that I knew my mother would not, so I realized it can’t be her)

When my sibling had a baby, they named him after a tzaddik, let’s say Nosson Tzvi. My mother’s father’s name was, let’s say, Tzvi Dovid. My sibling’s FIL (alive and well) is Dovid, so they obviously would not name the baby Tzvi Dovid after my grandfather.

Naming the baby Nosson Tzvi was naming him after a tzaddik and also for my grandfather. They chose to call the baby Nosson. My mother insisted that her grandson be called Tzvi, which is what her father was called.

When the baby’s parents stated that they were calling the baby Nosson, my mother told the entire family that the baby is not at all cute.

It’s what happens when people who think the parents always rule and should always be obeyed, go a tiny bit too far — they unwittingly make a laughingstock of themselves!
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amother
Phlox


 

Post Tue, Jan 25 2022, 11:18 pm
amother [ RosePink ] wrote:
What about the pain towards the child.
I have 2 names. Say Chana Rochel. And Rochel was the grandparent name.
I despise the name Rochel. I ask everyone to call me Chana or Chani. I know there's nothing wrong with Rochel, but I despise it.
I also know that I was forced to be called Chana Rochel to my grandparents their whole life.
It was diminishing and painful. It told me that I as a person didn't deserve to be happy, I had to serve as a prop without any likes and dislikes.


Yes, if the child has pain then you need to ask a shaila.
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amother
Phlox


 

Post Tue, Jan 25 2022, 11:22 pm
amother [ Zinnia ] wrote:
This is simply not true and I have spoken to many rabanim that say what you are saying is incorrect. And all you are doing is encouraging religious abuse which is not a Torah value.


What I am saying is something I have been told by a dayan and is not religious abuse.
I know people who will choose to name a child a name different than what their parents request. That's not the same as naming your child Chaim Zanvil, calling him Zanvil, and then refusing to even ask a shaila if you should call him both names only in your mother's presence because your mother's zeida was Chaim and she has pain when the child is just called Zanvil. It's not like the mother is asking the child named Chaim Zanvil should be called Peretz.
And no, I would never ask such a thing from my child, but I will gladly let my mother call my child whatever she wants and will call my child whatever way does not cause someone else pain in their presence. If I felt I could not, then I would ask a shaila.
I also think that almost all healthy parents would just let it go, but I don't understand why it is such a big deal and if it is, then yes, just ask a shaila.
Asking a shaila from your own dayan is not religious abuse.
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amother
Zinnia


 

Post Tue, Jan 25 2022, 11:30 pm
amother [ Phlox ] wrote:
What I am saying is something I have been told by a dayan and is not religious abuse.
I know people who will choose to name a child a name different than what their parents request. That's not the same as naming your child Chaim Zanvil, calling him Zanvil, and then refusing to even ask a shaila if you should call him both names only in your mother's presence because your mother's zeida was Chaim and she has pain when the child is just called Zanvil. It's not like the mother is asking the child named Chaim Zanvil should be called Peretz.
And no, I would never ask such a thing from my child, but I will gladly let my mother call my child whatever she wants and will call my child whatever way does not cause someone else pain in their presence. If I felt I could not, then I would ask a shaila.
I also think that almost all healthy parents would just let it go, but I don't understand why it is such a big deal and if it is, then yes, just ask a shaila.
Asking a shaila from your own dayan is not religious abuse.


Pretending that parents have the right to make demands of their married children and if they don't they are doing an aveira is religious abuse. Religious abuse is using the religion to excuse abuse which exactly what you are doing. There is no chiyuv to entertain your parents out of line demands. Kibbud av v'eim is a very specific mitzvah.
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amother
Zinnia


 

Post Tue, Jan 25 2022, 11:35 pm
amother [ Phlox ] wrote:
What I am saying is something I have been told by a dayan and is not religious abuse.
I know people who will choose to name a child a name different than what their parents request. That's not the same as naming your child Chaim Zanvil, calling him Zanvil, and then refusing to even ask a shaila if you should call him both names only in your mother's presence because your mother's zeida was Chaim and she has pain when the child is just called Zanvil. It's not like the mother is asking the child named Chaim Zanvil should be called Peretz.
And no, I would never ask such a thing from my child, but I will gladly let my mother call my child whatever she wants and will call my child whatever way does not cause someone else pain in their presence. If I felt I could not, then I would ask a shaila.
I also think that almost all healthy parents would just let it go, but I don't understand why it is such a big deal and if it is, then yes, just ask a shaila.
Asking a shaila from your own dayan is not religious abuse.


Also I'm assuming you are chassiddish because no one else uses a dayan for every day questions. In your world you ask questions about everything all the time that the rest of us don't feel is required by the torah. So just like I don't ask my rav about which job to take, or where to move, or which school to send to, I don't have to ask about things like names or parents. This way of life does not apply to people outside the chassiddish world.
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amother
Phlox


 

Post Tue, Jan 25 2022, 11:38 pm
amother [ Zinnia ] wrote:
Pretending that parents have the right to make demands of their married children and if they don't they are doing an aveira is religious abuse. Religious abuse is using the religion to excuse abuse which exactly what you are doing. There is no chiyuv to entertain your parents out of line demands. Kibbud av v'eim is a very specific mitzvah.


You're not understanding what I am saying. Never once here did I say anyone is doing an aveira or parents are allowed to make demands.
Leave kibbud av v'eim out. I would ask about that too, but let's say it doesn't fall into that category.
It is a lav to hurt another Jew. I would want to clarify with das torah if this falls into the category of hurting someone.
The dayan may very well say op doesn't have to call the child that name in his parents presence, especially since it seems very bothersome to her, but why not ask to know you are doing the right thing? And maybe the dayan will say she will need to, and that's why she asked.
Asking a shaila doesn't mean hearing a no.

amother [ Zinnia ] wrote:
Also I'm assuming you are chassiddish because no one else uses a dayan for every day questions. In your world you ask questions about everything all the time that the rest of us don't feel is required by the torah. So just like I don't ask my rav about which job to take, or where to move, or which school to send to, I don't have to ask about things like names or parents. This way of life does not apply to people outside the chassiddish world.


Ok, I understand that.
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amother
Tan


 

Post Tue, Jan 25 2022, 11:51 pm
amother [ Phlox ] wrote:
You're not understanding what I am saying.
Leave kibbud av v'eim out. I would ask about that too, but let's say it doesn't fall into that category.
It is a lav to hurt another Jew. I would want to clarify with das torah if this falls into the category of hurting someone.
The dayan may very well say op doesn't have to call the child that name in his parents presence, especially since it seems very bothersome to her, but why not ask to know you are doing the right thing? And maybe the dayan will say she will need to, and that's why she asked.
Asking a shaila doesn't mean hearing a no.


Yes, it's a lav to hurt another person, but even that concept is limited. No one person gets to arbitrarily decide that you need to do xyz, and if you don't they'll be hurt. That's not called hurting another person. That's called manipulation and coercion. Or it's simple abuse of religion, plain and simple.

Where do you draw the line? What happens if a parent says that you must call me every day at 3:00 pm and if you don't, I know you don't care about me. What about if a parent says if you don't make the simcha at this particular hall, I'll be ashamed. Or if you don't wear the simcha gown I pick out for you, you're not respecting me. Or if you don't help out your brother financially, it's really painful for me... I can go on and on.

When a person oversteps their boundaries and sets demands that aren't under their purview, that doesn't even come close to falling under the boundaries of hurting another person. This twisting of religious concepts needs to stop.
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amother
Lightpink


 

Post Tue, Jan 25 2022, 11:52 pm
amother [ Zinnia ] wrote:
How is it not damaging to the child to have a different name in the grandparents house? It’s their name! You can’t just switch it on them. I can’t believe people think this is a good idea. The fact that too many of you don’t see what wrong shows that we learned nothing and children continue to be pawns for adult to use. Another generation failing to give their children a healthy and secure upbringing.


My grandmother always called me by both names (my name is just typical let's say Esther malka - not for a relative) but let's say I'm called esty. Just made me feel like she doesn't really know who I am.

Also are we forgetting ruach hakodesh.
My first child was born on a date connected to a name that was also the name of 2 great grandparents. Yet I just felt the urge to name after my mils parent. (She very sweetly thanked me)
My own sister started berating me at the naming, why didn't I name for the great grandparents blah blah

Lo and behold... when second child was born... I was able to name for a recently deceased relative with no kids... that same name. And so grateful I hadn't wasted it already.
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amother
Tan


 

Post Tue, Jan 25 2022, 11:58 pm
amother [ Phlox ] wrote:
What I am saying is something I have been told by a dayan and is not religious abuse.
I know people who will choose to name a child a name different than what their parents request. That's not the same as naming your child Chaim Zanvil, calling him Zanvil, and then refusing to even ask a shaila if you should call him both names only in your mother's presence because your mother's zeida was Chaim and she has pain when the child is just called Zanvil. It's not like the mother is asking the child named Chaim Zanvil should be called Peretz.
And no, I would never ask such a thing from my child, but I will gladly let my mother call my child whatever she wants and will call my child whatever way does not cause someone else pain in their presence. If I felt I could not, then I would ask a shaila.
I also think that almost all healthy parents would just let it go, but I don't understand why it is such a big deal and if it is, then yes, just ask a shaila.
Asking a shaila from your own dayan is not religious abuse.


Asking a shaila from your own dayan is not religious abuse. Making your personal desires into a religious matter is religious abuse.
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amother
Zinnia


 

Post Wed, Jan 26 2022, 12:00 am
The lav of hurting only applies to things that are considered actually hurting someone. When someone oversteps boundaries and says if you don't do what I want you are hurting me, that's not real hurt that's manipulation and control. Any parent that demands a name is by definition unhealthy and there is a different set of rules specifically for such parents.
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amother
Zinnia


 

Post Wed, Jan 26 2022, 12:04 am
amother [ Phlox ] wrote:
What I am saying is something I have been told by a dayan and is not religious abuse.
I know people who will choose to name a child a name different than what their parents request. That's not the same as naming your child Chaim Zanvil, calling him Zanvil, and then refusing to even ask a shaila if you should call him both names only in your mother's presence because your mother's zeida was Chaim and she has pain when the child is just called Zanvil. It's not like the mother is asking the child named Chaim Zanvil should be called Peretz.
And no, I would never ask such a thing from my child, but I will gladly let my mother call my child whatever she wants and will call my child whatever way does not cause someone else pain in their presence. If I felt I could not, then I would ask a shaila.
I also think that almost all healthy parents would just let it go, but I don't understand why it is such a big deal and if it is, then yes, just ask a shaila.
Asking a shaila from your own dayan is not religious abuse.


The religious abuse is using kibbuv av to force people to do things. So by saying it's a real thing that parents can demand, cross lines and control married children in the name of kibbud av, that's condoning religious abuse. The mitzvah isn't there for parents to use as a card to get their way or for others to guilt people into being controlled by saying but kibbud av.
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amother
Peach


 

Post Wed, Jan 26 2022, 12:49 am
Stop with the religious abuse nonsense and crossing boundaries.
There’s nothing wrong with having open communication for goodness sakes. I spoke- communicated with the parents I love very much asking opinions for names.
I really feel bad for all you people who are so angry at the world and need to keep shouting abuse and boundaries.
In my world we’re happy and loving.
No need to shout abuse.
No need to scream about boundaries.
Just trying to make our loving parents happy.
My babies aren’t scarred because I called them Chaim Tzvi instead of Chaim yankel. They’re all happy with their names because it’s the only names they know.
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amother
Zinnia


 

Post Wed, Jan 26 2022, 1:08 am
amother [ Peach ] wrote:
Stop with the religious abuse nonsense and crossing boundaries.
There’s nothing wrong with having open communication for goodness sakes. I spoke- communicated with the parents I love very much asking opinions for names.
I really feel bad for all you people who are so angry at the world and need to keep shouting abuse and boundaries.
In my world we’re happy and loving.
No need to shout abuse.
No need to scream about boundaries.
Just trying to make our loving parents happy.
My babies aren’t scarred because I called them Chaim Tzvi instead of Chaim yankel. They’re all happy with their names because it’s the only names they know.


I feel for you that you think it's loving and normal to have your parents dictate every step of your life including your children's name. But hey if you are happy go for that life. But I will keep shouting and advocating for those that don't want to stick their head in the sand and suffer at the hands of people controlling them.
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