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watergirl




 
 
 
 

Post Wed, Jan 26 2022, 8:18 am
amother [ Periwinkle ] wrote:
My father died young and I was waiting for my daughter to name after him although it's none of my business. She added a name from her husband's family and calls him by added name. My feeling is she never should've named after my father. If she had no intention on using the name why bother. Yes. It bothers me and it would mean alot to me if she used both names. But then again it's her baby and noone asked me. Moving forward I asked my children not to name at all if they don't intend to use it or like the name.

You should have just stopped at "it's none of my business", especially if you really felt that way. (As to the "why bother", see the rest of my post. But why cant the answer be, she used it because she wanted to? Why isn't that good enough?)

But I think you hit a nail on the head with this post and did not realize it.

Do we pick a name to honor the deceased? Or to honor the child of the deceased? This seems to be the hidden crux of the issue.

To me and many others, if I choose to use my bubby's name, it's because I loved her, felt a connection with her, or just stam felt the need or desire to use the name. So in this case, just using it in any way or derivative of the name is meaningful. Using this name in any way creates warm and fuzzy feelings, connection, love, and more of this kind of feeling. Maybe also duty, but it seems not as much.

To others, like Periwinkle, it seems that using the name is to honor the deceased's living relative. So one would have to use the name in accordance with that person's wish. Sometimes (I hope more often than Imamother would make a reader think), the new parent has no issue honoring their parent's wish and using the requested name out of honor for that parent. Some are happy to do it. Others are clearly not. And we forget on these threads that there is a very real dynamic here, and I strongly believe if there is a situation where a parent makes a demand of the child to use a name, to call the child by a specific name in their presence, etc, then there are many other issues in the dynamic, not just this one thing.
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amother




Trillium
 

Post Wed, Jan 26 2022, 8:21 am
Also op I’m NOT calling you selfish- just in general, giving and being a giver doesn’t just mean when it’s comfortable and I’m in the mood. Obviously there are limits to giving, I’d never give a child a name I don’t like, but if it’s a nickname in my parents presence I hope I’d be able to get over myself and be the bigger person. (If the child themself has a problem with it, of course that’s a different story!)
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amother




Zinnia
 

Post Wed, Jan 26 2022, 8:22 am
amother [ Trillium ] wrote:
I don’t understand the big deal, why can’t you just use both names in their presence? Like who cares? Technically they have no right to force you or ask you, whatever, and maybe you are not obligated, but why can’t you go out of your comfort zone and grant the request? If they are always overstepping boundaries I hear, but if it’s a one off maybe you can just be mevater?


Because a child is not a pawn. It’s been explained. It’s uncomfortable for people to call their kid a name they don’t usually call them. And it’s unfair to the child to say you have a different name in grandparents house because that’s what they decided.
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singleagain




 
 
 
 

Post Wed, Jan 26 2022, 8:23 am
amother [ Trillium ] wrote:
I don’t understand the big deal, why can’t you just use both names in their presence? Like who cares? Technically they have no right to force you or ask you, whatever, and maybe you are not obligated, but why can’t you go out of your comfort zone and grant the request? If they are always overstepping boundaries I hear, but if it’s a one off maybe you can just be mevater?


Do you really think that if this was a one off, OP would be struggling with this so much that she'd feel the need to post?

It's so obvious that this is just another in a long line of boundary overstepping.
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amother




Smokey
 

Post Wed, Jan 26 2022, 8:23 am
amother [ Periwinkle ] wrote:
My father died young and I was waiting for my daughter to name after him although it's none of my business. She added a name from her husband's family and calls him by added name. My feeling is she never should've named after my father. If she had no intention on using the name why bother. Yes. It bothers me and it would mean alot to me if she used both names. But then again it's her baby and noone asked me. Moving forward I asked my children not to name at all if they don't intend to use it or like the name.


Why do you think that's the better option? What makes you in charge of how the name can be used? Who are you to say this? I just don't understand parents making rules about the names their kids can give.
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watergirl




 
 
 
 

Post Wed, Jan 26 2022, 8:25 am
amother [ Smokey ] wrote:
Why do you think that's the better option? What makes you in charge of how the name can be used? Who are you to say this? I just don't understand parents making rules about the names their kids can give.

See my post above.

Those parents want the name to honor themselves. Not the deceased. That's why we keep seeing people saying how much it would mean to them if the name is used, or how much it hurt them that the name is not used as the primary name or at all.
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amother




Rose
 

Post Wed, Jan 26 2022, 8:40 am
watergirl wrote:
You should have just stopped at "it's none of my business", especially if you really felt that way. (As to the "why bother", see the rest of my post. But why cant the answer be, she used it because she wanted to? Why isn't that good enough?)

But I think you hit a nail on the head with this post and did not realize it.

Do we pick a name to honor the deceased? Or to honor the child of the deceased? This seems to be the hidden crux of the issue.

To me and many others, if I choose to use my bubby's name, it's because I loved her, felt a connection with her, or just stam felt the need or desire to use the name. So in this case, just using it in any way or derivative of the name is meaningful. Using this name in any way creates warm and fuzzy feelings, connection, love, and more of this kind of feeling. Maybe also duty, but it seems not as much.

To others, like Periwinkle, it seems that using the name is to honor the deceased's living relative. So one would have to use the name in accordance with that person's wish. Sometimes (I hope more often than Imamother would make a reader think), the new parent has no issue honoring their parent's wish and using the requested name out of honor for that parent. Some are happy to do it. Others are clearly not. And we forget on these threads that there is a very real dynamic here, and I strongly believe if there is a situation where a parent makes a demand of the child to use a name, to call the child by a specific name in their presence, etc, then there are many other issues in the dynamic, not just this one thing.


Well said
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amother




Tan
 

Post Wed, Jan 26 2022, 8:41 am
#BestBubby wrote:
Just pointing out that its a custom to
ask ones parents for a name.

someone asked for a source.


I forget which sefer it is (I'll have to look it up again) - but it clearly spells out that the parents are the one to name the child & if there's a disagreement between a husband and wife, the wife's choice takes precedence.
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amother




Phlox
 

Post Wed, Jan 26 2022, 10:01 am
I have been taught we name after the deceased to honor the living, Water Girl, amongst other things.
But either way, it sounds like the push back in calling das torah is just a community difference because it seems some communities don't call das torah and I'm surprised when that started but that's for another thread.
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amother




Seablue
 

Post Wed, Jan 26 2022, 10:13 am
This thread triggers me. We have the opposite situation. We named after dh's parent and his siblings have a hard time as it brings trauma for them. You can never win somehow. I compromised for the sake of Shalom.
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amother




Rose
 

Post Wed, Jan 26 2022, 10:17 am
amother [ Tan ] wrote:
I forget which sefer it is (I'll have to look it up again) - but it clearly spells out that the parents are the one to name the child & if there's a disagreement between a husband and wife, the wife's choice takes precedence.


Can you get the name of the Sefer? I remember learning this as well and recently wanted to show it to someone and couldn’t find it.
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watergirl




 
 
 
 

Post Wed, Jan 26 2022, 10:23 am
amother [ Phlox ] wrote:
I have been taught we name after the deceased to honor the living, Water Girl, amongst other things.
But either way, it sounds like the push back in calling das torah is just a community difference because it seems some communities don't call das torah and I'm surprised when that started but that's for another thread.

Like I said, I did speak to daas torah. Most people on this thread did as well and said so.

So you were taught this is to honor the living, which explains your stance. That does not make you "right" across the board (as to "honoring" someone due to force, I'm not sure how anyone could derive honor like that who is not a narcissist). Neither does my outlook (honoring the deceased, not the living, with the name). I am not right across the board. As is the case with ALL things on imamother and in general in real life, this is an extremely diverse group and we all hold differently.

But I also think the serious abuse you grew up with and continue to experince colors your outlook and you can not see anyone else's outlook.

Wishing you menuchas hanefesh and all the best.
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amother




Phlox
 

Post Wed, Jan 26 2022, 11:28 am
watergirl wrote:
Like I said, I did speak to daas torah. Most people on this thread did as well and said so.

So you were taught this is to honor the living, which explains your stance. That does not make you "right" across the board (as to "honoring" someone due to force, I'm not sure how anyone could derive honor like that who is not a narcissist). Neither does my outlook (honoring the deceased, not the living, with the name). I am not right across the board. As is the case with ALL things on imamother and in general in real life, this is an extremely diverse group and we all hold differently.

But I also think the serious abuse you grew up with and continue to experince colors your outlook and you can not see anyone else's outlook.

Wishing you menuchas hanefesh and all the best.


I don't know if you're confusing me with other posters or what, but I never said that anyone should do one way or the other or that one way is more right and one way is more wrong. I just explained why I would personally think it is a shaila and why asking das torah could be beneficial. I also said it is possible the das torah will tell her yes, and he may tell her no, and he may say something else. There was no black and white in my post and I'm sorry you see it that way.
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BrachaBatya




 
 
 
 

Post Wed, Jan 26 2022, 12:53 pm
Mazal tov on the baby!

Your baby, your choice, your decision - you are under no obligation to bend to these requests!
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#BestBubby




 
 
 
 

Post Wed, Jan 26 2022, 1:39 pm
I heard about this Shayla (question) ask to a Rov.

The grandparent wanted grandchild named after his Father.

But the Great Grandfather was not Shomer Shobbos.

The Rov told the parents give the name Avrohom to make your Father happy.

BUT, have in mind that you are naming after AVROHOM AVINU and not Great-Grandpa!

You see the Rov did NOT tell the parents, tell your father "Go to H*ll! This is OUR Baby! Butt out!"

You see the Rov felt it is a Mitzvah to make Parents Happy.

and Chas V'Sholom to HURT Parents, if it can be avoided.
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#BestBubby




 
 
 
 

Post Wed, Jan 26 2022, 1:43 pm
It seems unreasonable to refuse to call the child by both names when by the Grandparents.

There is an Inyan to use both names at least once a month - so this satisfied that Inyan as well.

Some posters say that obviously these parents are too demanding IN GENERAL.

So refuse the UNREASONABLE requests, but one should not refuse ALL REQUESTS just to
"prove one's independence" which is what the posters who defended OP were implying is going on here.
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