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Anti-authority child

 
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amother




OP
 

Post Mon, Jan 24 2022, 9:19 pm
My son just doesn't get the concept of authority. He is always saying "why do you get to make the rules? I don't want to do xyz". At home I pretty much got a handle on it but in school his teacher is not managing. He gets sent out almost every day.

I totally understand the teacher my son will interrupt/ make trouble and he cant stop the class to deal with him. When he tells my ds to sit down or be quiet my son will say your not my boss. The school social worker discussed with him the authority pyramid that that didn't seem to help at all.

The strategies that worked at home are not practical for a school setting. I can devote more time to dealing with it and there aren't 25 other boys waiting to be taught and disciplined.

I tried making a rewards chart if he doesn't get sent out I give tickets to get a prize but then when he does get sent out he says it was the boy near him but the teacher blamed him.

Any ideas, resources, and tips welcome!!
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amother




Wandflower
 

Post Mon, Jan 24 2022, 9:37 pm
I have ideas for at home, but not for at school where you are not present and can't control the situation.
Maybe he needs an old battle axe as a teacher, like Mrs. Wormwood in "Calvin and Hobbes".
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ssspectacular




 
 
 
 

Post Mon, Jan 24 2022, 9:50 pm
He needs a therapist to create a behavior plan for him.
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amother




Ultramarine
 

Post Mon, Jan 24 2022, 9:50 pm
Hi op - I have a 12 year old son who has this. On top of having ADHD and anxiety he has ODD. It took me so long to admit that he has this problem. I was embarrassed that I was not a good mother - that I was somehow causing this - not being strong or following through with consequences. I truly felt like an unfit mother. I then realized a few things:

1. my other kids are not like this. I have both older younger, same and different gender kids. He is the only one that simply does not listen.

2. He was always always like this. From when he was 2 years old he would simply not listen.

3. I had tried every trick in the book - how to gain cooperation in a peaceful way, how to set limits, how to talk so kids listen, etc etc. Nothing and when I say nothing I mean no parenting class, book, therapist, medicine worked.

The only thing that worked was to work with your child and never ever ever get into a power struggle because 100% of the time you will lose guaranteed (or your money back).

Now - I am totally good with him. I work with him, I never ever ever demand. I talk to him like a coworker vs. a 12 year old. I don't have fights with him anymore because we don't fight.

The more I accepted that he is who he is the easier all this became.

This is a tremendously difficult test to deal with, especially when you have multiple obligations in life but this is what worked for me.
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amother




Ultramarine
 

Post Mon, Jan 24 2022, 9:54 pm
Just re-read your post and I see you are asking about at school. I explained my post to the principal and teacher at a sit down meeting with myself principal teacher and husband.

We told the school that we are on the same team - that we are ready to do whatever it takes but - heads up- this kid will not listen if you demand. You will just get into a downward spiral of fighting the kid and kicking him out, alienating him more and more.
The alternative is to work with him.
We told them:
1. never direct confront
2. never punishment
3. simple reward system - we handled it. If you behave for 4 days you get a prize. 2 Weeks in a row bigger prize.

We are very positive with the school in terms of thanking them and being very upfront. We also reach out for updates so that they know that we are on it.
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amother




Buttercup
 

Post Mon, Jan 24 2022, 9:59 pm
Small needs unmet over time create big problems. I would assume your son is more sensitive then he let's on. Socially unsure of himself. Somewhat insecure. Probably creative and bright. After years of not noticing his insecurities, telling him he can do it when he expresses concern, not hearing him out fully, he builds an image of himself that feels more safe, which in this case is entirely defying all authority. Problems are best solved slowly by getting to the root of it. He needs more hugs and words of affirmation. Never criticize or put him down. Calmly pull him aside and ask him respectfully if he can try his best to do xyz and you know it's hard for him but if he can try... praise him constantly for real things not exaggerated...Shmooz to him about your day share things with him that make him feel special...over time as his confidence is raised and self esteem strengthened he'll be in a better position to discuss school options. Hatzlocha
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amother




OP
 

Post Mon, Jan 24 2022, 10:23 pm
amother [ Buttercup ] wrote:
Small needs unmet over time create big problems. I would assume your son is more sensitive then he let's on. Socially unsure of himself. Somewhat insecure. Probably creative and bright. After years of not noticing his insecurities, telling him he can do it when he expresses concern, not hearing him out fully, he builds an image of himself that feels more safe, which in this case is entirely defying all authority. Problems are best solved slowly by getting to the root of it. He needs more hugs and words of affirmation. Never criticize or put him down. Calmly pull him aside and ask him respectfully if he can try his best to do xyz and you know it's hard for him but if he can try... praise him constantly for real things not exaggerated...Shmooz to him about your day share things with him that make him feel special...over time as his confidence is raised and self esteem strengthened he'll be in a better position to discuss school options. Hatzlocha


I agree with you though in this case I don't know where his needs are not being met.
He is only 6 yo. We spend quality time, I encourage him to do things he is good at/enjoys like woodworking.
He does have a bit of a low self esteem but I only see it when we are discussing school, at home and with family he is the Big brother and very confident
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#BestBubby




 
 
 
 

Post Mon, Jan 24 2022, 10:31 pm
Ask DS, if a 2 y.o. wants to run in the street, should the parent let because the child wants to?

DS: No! because the child can get killed.

Parent: Our rules are for your own good.

DS: But going to sleep late won't kill me. I can decide when I want to go to sleep.

Parent: When you were 2 y.o. you did not understand that running in the street is dangerous.

And at X year old you don't understand why you have to go to sleep on time.

And that is why Hashem made parents.

Because Kids don't understand what is good for them.

For now you have to trust that Mommy loves you and knows what is best for you.

When you are grown up, I won't tell you what to do, because you will be old enough to
make the right decisions.
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amother




Lightcyan
 

Post Mon, Jan 24 2022, 10:32 pm
amother [ Ultramarine ] wrote:
Just re-read your post and I see you are asking about at school. I explained my post to the principal and teacher at a sit down meeting with myself principal teacher and husband.

We told the school that we are on the same team - that we are ready to do whatever it takes but - heads up- this kid will not listen if you demand. You will just get into a downward spiral of fighting the kid and kicking him out, alienating him more and more.
The alternative is to work with him.
We told them:
1. never direct confront
2. never punishment
3. simple reward system - we handled it. If you behave for 4 days you get a prize. 2 Weeks in a row bigger prize.

We are very positive with the school in terms of thanking them and being very upfront. We also reach out for updates so that they know that we are on it.


You sound like a great parent and advocate for your child!
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amother




OP
 

Post Mon, Jan 24 2022, 11:11 pm
#BestBubby wrote:
Ask DS, if a 2 y.o. wants to run in the street, should the parent let because the child wants to?

DS: No! because the child can get killed.

Parent: Our rules are for your own good.

DS: But going to sleep late won't kill me. I can decide when I want to go to sleep.

Parent: When you were 2 y.o. you did not understand that running in the street is dangerous.

And at X year old you don't understand why you have to go to sleep on time.

And that is why Hashem made parents.

Because Kids don't understand what is good for them.

For now you have to trust that Mommy loves you and knows what is best for you.

When you are grown up, I won't tell you what to do, because you will be old enough to
make the right decisions.


I've had countless 'logical' discussions with him. They don't help when we're in the thick of the situation.
At home I've figured out how to get him on my team so it works out but:
a) It's a life skill that he needs to learn. What will he do when his boss tells him something etc.
b) I cant expect his rebbe/teacher to cater to him. They are willing to work with me but there is only that much they can do.
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amother




Lightcyan
 

Post Mon, Jan 24 2022, 11:21 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
I've had countless 'logical' discussions with him. They don't help when we're in the thick of the situation.
At home I've figured out how to get him on my team so it works out but:
a) It's a life skill that he needs to learn. What will he do when his boss tells him something etc.
b) I cant expect his rebbe/teacher to cater to him. They are willing to work with me but there is only that much they can do.


Amother Ultramarine posted some really good advice. I find some of those tips are very helpful with my DC too. Hopefully you can get the teachers on board.
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amother




Buttercup
 

Post Tue, Jan 25 2022, 5:53 am
I thought he was older sorry.
I would focus on his social challenges in school. Usually the area of weakness/ insecurities is what triggers negative behavior patterns. Be open about his insecurities with friends and make him feel normal for it... I've seen drastic change the moment u discuss the insecurities a child has having w them, it'salmostlike a relief...also playmates can help. But no offense at age 6 the school should be managing him...
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FranticFrummie




 
 
 
 

Post Tue, Jan 25 2022, 6:25 am
OP, I used to babysit for a family of 5 children. 3 of them had ODD, and all of them had ADHD, dyslexia, and learning delays. The 2yo was the worst of them all. The older brother and sister would beat each other up on a regular basis, but the 2yo was hell on wheels. Never in my life have I seen a child like that.

If I didn't want her to run in the street, all I had to do was tell her to not go outside. If I wanted her to close the door, I'd tell her to keep it open. You get the picture. She still needed naps, but fought like a cornered animal. Sometimes I'd have to put her in a cuddle-hold until she got exhausted and fell asleep in my arms.

One time, she wanted ice cream. I offered her the vanilla, and she said "no." I offered her the chocolate, and she said "no." I told her that there is chocolate ice cream, or vanilla, and that's what we have. She said "NO!" I said "Do you want ice cream?" and she said "yes." "Do you want chocolate or vanilla?" "NO NO NO!" "Do you want a different flavor? "no." "Can you show me what you want?" She points to the chocolate. G-d help you if you put it in the wrong bowl or use the wrong spoon. Banging head That's just one tiny example.

When I would show up at her house, even if it was just for Shabbos lunch, she'd just take one look at me and say "NO! You go away!" Her poor mom was just at her wit's end. I think mom went out and got a job just so she had a reason to escape for a few hours.

Nobody ever invited them over for meals, because their nerves could not handle having the kids around. The parents were constantly criticized behind their backs, and sometimes even right to their faces. The parents would just say "Oh, you're so smart? Fine, I'll drop the kids off at your house tomorrow afternoon. Let me know how it works out." That usually shut people up.

Unless you are actually around a kid with ODD, you will never really understand. It's like living in Bizarro World, where everything is contrary and upside down. It's hard. It's really, really hard. There was no therapy or medication or elimination diets or anything that made one bit of difference. It's like a roller coaster. All you can do is strap yourself in, and hope you survive the ride. Hang on! Hug


B'H, the kids seem to be growing out of the ODD, or at least they are learning proper coping mechanisms. The older girl is happily married and very stable now. (Shout out to BY of Denver for being patient and helping her turn around.) The older boy is in yeshivah, but still very immature. The 2yo is 15 now. I don't see her often enough to say for sure how she's doing, but the last time I saw her she seemed to be handling life OK. The two non-ODD kids are doing fantastic. (Their mom once said "B'H, I got a couple of 'normal' ones!")
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ora_43




 
 
 
 

Post Tue, Jan 25 2022, 6:29 am
ODD (mentioned above) is one possibility, but I just want to mention a couple other issues that can cause this kind of behavior:

ADHD - in this case, the kid might not be truly anti-authority, but more, they are incapable of not making trouble, and "I don't care/ you're not the boss of me" is a defense. (not always conscious)

HFA/SCD - autism or autism-like issues = kids who are trying to understand social rules logically, when social rules aren't always logical. Sometimes the answer for "but why does the teacher get to decide?" is just "because that's how it works." That can be very hard for a kid who doesn't have a gut sense of how to interact with people, and wants a system of black-and-white rules that always apply.

*
I'm not saying it's definitely one of those 3 things (eta: just as one more example, giftedness could also be linked to this in some kids). Just giving a general sense of what the thinking might be behind his behavior, because each of those requires a different approach.


Last edited by ora_43 on Tue, Jan 25 2022, 7:20 am; edited 1 time in total
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ora_43




 
 
 
 

Post Tue, Jan 25 2022, 6:50 am
In general, I'd talk to the teacher about a plan they can use in school. Maybe include the principal and/or school psychologist, if you think they'd be helpful.

Plan: What will/won't they punish for (because with a kid like this you have to choose your battles), what rewards will they give for good behavior, what punishments for bad behavior, how can the teacher talk to the child and try to get his cooperation, what will you be doing on your end.

(the teacher doesn't have time to talk to your son one-on-one in the moment, but what about after class? after school?)

Also, have you talked to the teacher about what works for you at home, and do you feel like the teacher is willing to listen? or he has his way of doing things and that's the only way he's willing to use? Does your son feel like the teacher likes him?

Honestly he might need a different teacher, or a different type of class. Mostly, a smaller class, and a teacher who is flexible in their approach. But I'd try creating a behavioral plan first and see if that helps.
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amother




Caramel
 

Post Tue, Jan 25 2022, 7:02 am
I have had similar students.

I recommend getting him evaluated. There may be something specific such as ODD as others suggested. If so, he may qualify for specific accommodations/ recommendations that would be put into a plan for teachers and school to follow. Ask your pediatrician how to go about it if your child's school does not seem to have resources about getting him evaluated. I'm guessing they do not, based on your description of the school.

For the poster who said she doesn't get why the school simply can't manage his behavior, it's really not so simple when you are dealing with ODD.
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allgood




 
 
 
 

Post Tue, Jan 25 2022, 11:44 am
First off, you sound like a super involved mom and your son is lucky to have you on his side.
Can you get your son assessed to determine where these issues are coming from?

I have worked with children on the spectrum who arent mean, bad, or defiant, but simply processed things in a little bit of a different way than typical which led to similar issues.

If you arent in NY then regardless of diagnosis you may want to consider having a BCBA help with a plan that will both teach skills and help manage the behaviors.
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amother




Gold
 

Post Tue, Jan 25 2022, 12:08 pm
I would recommend a para/ seit being that he is so young.
The current dynamics are not good for him, the teacher and the class.
Having someone one on one will calm the storm before it starts, and help him function in the classroom.
It will also give him a framework outside the classroom if it comes to a point where he must leave the room. So the shadow can teach him whatever he is missing out in the classroom at the time.
Hatzlacha.
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