Husband doesn't think aggressive/secular games etc. are bad

amother

Mon, Mar 28 2022, 1:41 am

We are a kollel family, both of us became frum as children - we were both brought up on a diet of computer games and secular TV shows.

I really firmly believe there is no reason for my little cheder boys to play violent games - I don't think every purim costume should be secular, or every lego set needs to be pirate-themed with skeletons and swords. I don't want them watching educational videos that teach them to read, but introduce them to ideas like 'superstar'.

My husband completely disagrees. He thinks because he didn't turn out aggressive or influenced by secular ideas, it won't do them any harm.

I disagree with him - it did affect him - he is a kollel avreich in his mid-30s, and his ringtone is some game theme tune from a game about killing people. He watches game walkthroughs in his 'spare time'.

I see my friends with their beautiful holy children who have hardly any screen time and dress up as the kohen gadol every purim, and it makes me sad.

We have tried to discuss it sensibly, but we don't get anywhere, we just disagree. And anyway, I feel the damage is done - I have chareidi boys in a sheltered system, who sing about being a skater and singing in a band.

imaima

Mon, Mar 28 2022, 1:46 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

I didn't know that adults have ringtones any more.

Anyway, I think it is something you will have to disagree about. It is "that bad" vs "not that bad" argument.

amother

Seashell

Mon, Mar 28 2022, 2:03 am

Chumash is pretty violent. Pinchas becomes kohen gadol after a public stabbing.

I think you're conflating two things here.

On the one hand, you have violent games, which are not great, but can serve a purpose in channeling normal human impulses. Boys and girls may experience them differently, which could be why your husband feels they have a role to play and you don't.

The other thing is assuming that everything originating outside the Jewish community must necessarily be bad. It's one thing to be immersed in nonsense, and it's another to be aware of the surrounding culture. Chazal knew the world around them, and Jews have never been hermetically sealed off from outside ideas.

When you want things in a positive way, that's great. If you are feeling insecure about whether you look as frum as your neighbors, not so much.

Plenty of talmidei chachamim dressed up as cowboys and pirates on Purim.

amother

Yolk

Mon, Mar 28 2022, 3:42 am

My oldest ds is only 8, but so far he has not been exposed to pirates, cowboys, or superstars. His cheder actually sends home a letter every year saying the boys should have torahdik costumes, and it seems like most of the boys do. They also have a mivtza on Purim and one of the boxes says "I made everyone happy with my torahdik costume of _____" or something to that effect. My son has been excited to be a kohen gadol, moshe rabbeinu, etc. He hasn't felt like he's missing out as far as I can tell.

What do your sons' peers know and play? I would keep in line with that. I spent some time in Rechavia years ago, and I know the chareidi boys there did play games with pirates and the like. I don't think it's more violent than the "cops and robbers" that my kids play. Or more violent than Tanach, which pp pointed out. But it is more influenced by secular culture. Like I said, you're probably best off following the norms of your community. And choose a community where you appreciate those norms. When you and dh presumably chose your community, did one of you feel differently?

My dh comes from a BT family, and he was raised with innocent videos and stories. He doesn't seem very influenced by secular culture though, maybe because he was in the chareidi cheder/yeshiva system more than he was home. So if your boys are in a more chareidi framework than your dh, they may also be less influenced by him.

imaima

Mon, Mar 28 2022, 5:30 am

How did they get to see these videos/games/characters in the first place?

Did your dh specifically seek to introduce them?
I rerrad your OP and your position is firmly against it and his position is, he doesn't mind. So, it seems that a compromise would have been to do it your way.
But now that the kids already watch and like it, the question is how to take it away. There will be resistance and in this case you need your dh on your side which he is not.

What aspect exactly is disturbing you: that kids get violent? That they see phenomena from the secular world? That you are different than other kollel families? Something else?

amother

Moonstone

Mon, Mar 28 2022, 5:47 am

Two totally separate issues going on here:

1) video games. Not ok, addictive, visually violent, screens.

2) what you refer to as "secular" - pirates, swords, superstars. This is how boys play. I literally thought I could raise my boys without knowing what a gun was. I was objectively ridiculous. Playing pirates and having Lego castles with knights and sword fights will not take away from their frumkeit or love of torah. That's your BT mishugas. (Sorry)

My boys have barely any screen time (and when they do it's frum videos) and yet they have superhero capes in their costume box that they like to run around in. That's normal. Restricting purim costumes to kohen gadols is not going to foster your child's love for Yiddishkeit and raise his level of frumkeit (though I do think the rebbe has a right to request that).

And no, you do not need a Rav to tell you that pirate Legos are ok.

amother

Moonstone

Mon, Mar 28 2022, 5:50 am

amother [ Moonstone ] wrote:

Two totally separate issues going on here:

1) video games. Not ok, addictive, visually violent, screens.

2) what you refer to as "secular" - pirates, swords, superstars. This is how boys play. I literally thought I could raise my boys without knowing what a gun was. I was objectively ridiculous. Playing pirates and having Lego castles with knights and sword fights will not take away from their frumkeit or love of torah. That's your BT mishugas. (Sorry)

My boys have barely any screen time (and when they do it's frum videos) and yet they have superhero capes and Ninja costumes in their costume box that they like to run around in. That's normal. Restricting purim costumes to kohen gadols is not going to foster your child's love for Yiddishkeit and raise his level of frumkeit (though I do think the rebbe has a right to request that).

And no, you do not need a Rav to tell you that pirate Legos are ok.

eta: despite their games and peripheral knowledge of superheroes, my boys are far more obsessed with playing Pharoah and achashverosh. Just saying.

And again, we have enough rules. Don't add to the Torah.

amother

Yolk

Mon, Mar 28 2022, 5:56 am

amother [ Moonstone ] wrote:

2) what you refer to as "secular" - pirates, swords, superstars. This is how boys play. I literally thought I could raise my boys without knowing what a gun was. I was objectively ridiculous. Playing pirates and having Lego castles with knights and sword fights will not take away from their frumkeit or love of torah. That's your BT mishugas. (Sorry)

My boys have barely any screen time (and when they do it's frum videos) and yet they have superhero capes in their costume box that they like to run around in. That's normal. Restricting purim costumes to kohen gadols is not going to foster your child's love for Yiddishkeit and raise his level of frumkeit (though do think the rebbe has a right to request that).

OOC if your sons have no non-Jewish screen time, how do they know what a superhero is? That's why they wear capes, to be superman or whatever, right? I posted about my 8 year old above. I'm pretty sure he has no concept of superman or spiderman or anything to do with a cape. And he has some slippers with spiderman actually. I'm pretty sure it just doesn't ring a bell for him. I'm not saying him knowing about it would be a problem, and I think if it's prevalent in OP's community it would be problematic to keep him out of the loop. But I do notice it does not seem to exist here.

amother

Moonstone

Mon, Mar 28 2022, 6:00 am

amother [ Yolk ] wrote:

Because they live in the US. There are kids in their frum school that talk about these things. And on the playground. They also read a ton and have a million books and some have pirates etc. That's how. Of course, if we lived in New Square or Monroe, it would be a different story.

amother

Yolk

Mon, Mar 28 2022, 6:04 am

amother [ Moonstone ] wrote:

Got it, thanks for the clarity. I'm on a chareidi yishuv in Israel, so I guess that explains the difference in exposure.

imasinger

Mon, Mar 28 2022, 6:50 am

OP, take some time and think about what helped you become the person you are today. What inspired you to grow and change? What did you wish might have been different?

It's usual for parents to have high ideals for our children, and to feel like we want them to have the advantages we lacked.

But it's also a problem to become focused on certain things to the exclusion of others.

From the limited amount that can be learned from your post, taking a hard line on this issue could lead to at least two much more serious consequences than what you are worried about right now.

1. SB is a much greater influence on a child than any amount of secular culture. If you are looking down on your DH because of his ringtone or what he does for relaxation, that disdain could be a problem in itself, or it could be a sign of a deeper problem of a DH who is not really there for his family. (Or is he an active, caring father who is buying them Lego sets without discussing it with you?) But in either case, it probably wouldn't hurt to set up some time with marriage counseling, before the cracks become rifts.

2. Far more children go OTD because their parents' expectations were too severe than because of unholy secular influences alone. Telling boys what they're not allowed to play is usually counterproductive. And boys usually outgrow imaginary play, and spend more time on sports or other such group activities (riding bikes, etc) before too long. You might do well to talk to other moms to find out how they guide their children's play in a positive fashion.

Overall, I would highly encourage you to seek hadracha from a rav or rebbitzen you trust. My own hunch, perhaps based on too little information, is that the best way to influence your boys is to start within yourself, to grow in your acceptance of the DH and family Hashem has given you as they are right now, and only then consider how to nurture them further towards your goals.

mommy3b2c

Mon, Mar 28 2022, 7:24 am

amother [ Moonstone ] wrote:

Agree with this general concept. Obviously there is levels. My kids are very exposed to a lot of secular things. (We took my six year old to see the spider man movie, for example.)
Yet, in school they had to write a paragraph about what they would wish for if they had a magic wishing stone and he wished to meet Moshe rabeinu and be like him.

behappy2

Mon, Mar 28 2022, 7:26 am

Living in New Square or Monroe has it's own set of problems. Just one small thing. One of these places the cheder recently gave the middle schoolers a razor. Talk about safety/violence!

There's no perfect chinuch. It may look like it on the outside when you see their innocent costumes or curly peyos or yiddish. I've been around many communities. Each one has its own issues.

That said instead of focusing on what you don't like about your husband's chinuch you can bring in more yiddishkeit. Buy interesting Torah books and read it to them. One example would be the little medrash says or the Know Navi series. Buy the tales of inspiration from Rabbi Mordechai Finkelman set (cd). Focus on adding in instead of detracting.

keym

Mon, Mar 28 2022, 7:40 am

Op, my kids are being raised in Lakewood, fairly sheltered. We barely watch anything and videos for my kids mean uncle Moishy. At the Dr, they see Paw Patrol and Bob the Builder.
My parents and inlaws raised us that "violence is gyish" and would snap the guns off the risk pieces. It didn't help. We all went through our shooting/stabbing/police/army stage. We weren't allowed to have guns so we made "shooters" out of Lego. I actually remember our collection of "shooters" "hurters" and "cutters" because we didn't have the gun and knife vocabulary.

I decided that I'm not wasting my energy on that when raising my kids. (I have 4 boys). We dress up as soldiers and police and marines and pirates. I let them have guns and handcuffs. And they build guns out of Lego and clics. Our focus is on only hurting imaginary "bad guys"and not hurting real people.
My kids don't know about superheroes because they don't have that exposure. My teenagers know a bit about superman and batman and such, but as a ridiculous little kids thing.
I think nuance is important.

amother

Moonstone

Mon, Mar 28 2022, 8:40 am

keym wrote:

Exactly this. (And same to most everything above) In general, books and toys are banned if they are unkind or hurt people. The exception, of course, is "bad guys". And this works because it is fully in line with all the Torah/navi/medrash stories. I'd focus less on worrying about "secular" - it automatically becomes childish and silly as they grow.