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Forum -> Chinuch, Education & Schooling
S/O Big Classes
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amother
OP


 

Post Fri, Apr 08 2022, 7:24 am
Spinoff of tuition discussion. It was once mentioned that we need to pay higher tuition because we can't have too big classes.

But having kids in small classes, I am wondering: Is that really the case?

I think a good teacher is a good teacher even in a big class, and a bad teacher will be bad in a small class too. In fact I think a very large class with a good teacher and an assistant might be FAR better than the million small classes we have today.

Maybe the focus should be on finding the good teachers and motivating them to continue (paying good salaries) instead of trying to keep class sizes down.
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amother
Tealblue


 

Post Fri, Apr 08 2022, 7:31 am
Finding and keeping good teaches with classroom management skills is the key. I went to public school and we had classes of 25-32 students. A good teacher can manage that. Getting parents on board to understand this is a different issue , as many think small class or two teachers means success. And yes, the schools need to pay more which might mean taking away some teacher benefits.
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amother
Royalblue


 

Post Fri, Apr 08 2022, 7:32 am
The class size thing isn't just about management, but it's also about being able to adapt the work to kids individual levels- in which case a capable assistant helps too. A college kid who knows nothing about education and is just a body in the room doesn't help with that.
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BrisketBoss




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Apr 08 2022, 8:01 am
Loved having small classes. The class dynamics, the extent to which we were all able to participate...
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amother
Sand


 

Post Fri, Apr 08 2022, 8:04 am
Students don't just need to be controlled.
Every child is a world in of itself.
For every child to flourish in their unique way, they need someone looking out for them.
It is not possible to give every child your all when the classes are huge. Especially in the younger grades.
An assistant or 2 might be necessary.

In older grades when teachers aren't as involved, it doesn't matter so much.
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Chayalle




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Apr 08 2022, 8:16 am
I'm not in Chinuch but having talked to my DD's principal - Lakewood's largest girls' school - over the years, she definitely disagrees with you OP. She has fought to try to keep the classrooms smaller over the years. She firmly believes that a teacher cannot teach well when the class is over a certain size.

And in high school it becomes more about number of girls overall, not just class size. I have heard from so many girls who feel their high school was like a factory. I send my girls to a high school that is smaller overall, both in terms of class size and number of classes, and when I speak to the Hanhalla, they actually know the students. It makes a big difference to feel like you are actually somebody, not just a number in a mass of students.

The Gemarrah talks about class size, and that it should be smaller. That's evidence enough for me.
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amother
Fuchsia


 

Post Fri, Apr 08 2022, 8:21 am
Op, you say good teachers will be good teachers in both big abs small classes. That's true. But what about weak students or students that are easily distracted? Do you think those students will perform equally whether there are 32 or only 22 students in the class?
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amother
Bluebell


 

Post Fri, Apr 08 2022, 8:25 am
Even a truly gifted teacher (who's not likely to work for the peanuts being offered by many religious schools) cannot connect with everyone in a big class. She may be able to control the room, but that's about it. Some kids will get lost, and that's a high price to pay.
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behappy2




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Apr 08 2022, 8:33 am
We should invest in educating teachers and principals. There should be a funding for teachers and principals to pay for classes on upgrading their knowledge on teaching methods.

Smaller classes at least in the younger grades and) or assistants. A good teacher can control a big class but she can't reach and teach every student.
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Chayalle




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Apr 08 2022, 8:36 am
behappy2 wrote:
We should invest in educating teachers and principals. There should be a funding for teachers and principals to pay for classes on upgrading their knowledge on teaching methods.

Smaller classes at least in the younger grades and) or assistants. A good teacher can control a big class but she can't reach and teach every student.


The elementary school my girls attend definitely does this - continuing education for the teachers, smaller classes with assistants in Primary and First grades.
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amother
Jasmine


 

Post Fri, Apr 08 2022, 8:39 am
Op you are definitely not in chinuch.
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DrMom




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Apr 08 2022, 8:39 am
All things being equal, small classes are better. It's difficult to give kids enough individual attention if there are 50 kids in a class.

I'd rather pay a bit extra to have enough teachers to split the class into manageable groups than cut corners and have my kid lost in a class of 50 kids.
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amother
Apple


 

Post Fri, Apr 08 2022, 9:58 am
I think many public schools with larger classrooms also had "tracking" and students were divided by ability. There was no such thing as "mainstreaming". While not ideal it is much easier to teach a larger group of children who are all more or less on the same level.

Also teaching methods evolve just as parenting methods evolve and best teaching methods don't involve teaching by rote to a group of silent students.

It is really the same if you think about parenting. Most parents raising children now are much more involved in the emotional and psychological growth of their children. My parents were very involved parents FOR THEIR TIME but they assumed that if we were doing well in school and had no overt behavior issues, everything was fine. This was pretty typical of my friends and we grew up much more emotionally independent than many current children. We tended to not go to our parents if we were working out social issues for example.
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amother
Copper


 

Post Fri, Apr 08 2022, 10:22 am
Op when you say big class/small what number are you thinking?
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keym




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Apr 08 2022, 10:28 am
amother [ Copper ] wrote:
Op when you say big class/small what number are you thinking?


I was wondering that also.
There are high schools in Lakewood that have 45-50 girls per class.
Even if the teacher is amazing. Has wonderful classroom control, runs a class that accommodates all the different levels. At the end of the day, it's too large.
Especially when you get to upper elementary and high school and they have multiple teachers and teachers teach multiple classes.
Teaching 4 classes a day chumash means teaching 200 girls. Even the best teacher in the world cannot connect intimately with 200 girls.
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mha3484




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Apr 08 2022, 10:53 am
When my oldest son was in Nursery (year before pre1a) the school had planned to have two classes of 28 kids and there was a handful on a waiting list. Every one I knew was very upset about it. That summer, our new menahel took over and said absolutely not. He got the board to find out how to pay for a third class. This is a nationally respected mechanech and he said a boy can not learn basic skills like kriah in a class of 28.
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amother
PlumPink


 

Post Fri, Apr 08 2022, 11:01 am
Kids do better with smaller classes. As they get older and more independent, you can scale up and deliver passable instruction, but the instruction is still better with a smaller class.

In many of my required classes for my engineering major in undergrad, we had class sizes of 150+ in auditoriums and this level of instruction was tolerable, in no small part because we were adults handpicked through a demanding admissions process and accustomed to taking our own notes and processing complicated material quickly. But we still had two sessions a week in a smaller group with a graduate teaching assistant, and the options of coming to extra office hours for help. And with all that, quite a few people flunked out of engineering and had to transfer.

Children, even high schoolers, are not going to learn well when they just have to sit passively in a lecture style class, even if the material is presented well by the lecturer. There isn't much opportunity to engage, participate, or ask questions in a 45 minute period if you have 35 classmates and still expect the teacher to cover the assigned material.
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amother
Cantaloupe


 

Post Fri, Apr 08 2022, 11:53 am
The problem in many yeshivot is nepotism.

Lots end up hiring unqualified friends, like one of my kid's teacher who doesn't teach a thing but people in the school administration are her friends.

A good teacher engages a large or small class, I agree. But a bad teacher in a big class is a far worse disaster than in a small one.
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amother
Firethorn


 

Post Fri, Apr 08 2022, 12:46 pm
I don't think frum schools can really be compared to public schools. Yes, my very good, secular, public elementary school had 30ish students per class with no assistant, but we also either only had one teacher for the whole day or were separated by how well we were doing, depending on the age. My husband had a separate Hebrew teacher/kodesh teacher from 1st grade. So less time with ths teacher for them to build a relationship with the students. They also don't have as much material to cover, since they only teach English. My husband didn't have nearly as close of a relationship with his elementary school teachers as I did, because he was busier than I was in school. He was learning Hebrew and Tanach and about chagim. I was mostly doing family tree art projects or writing stories about ballet/baseball/my baby brother/etc. and other learning activities that give the teachers a clearer idea of who their students are
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Beingreal




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Apr 08 2022, 1:09 pm
I was in a small class and loved every moment of it! I was close with my classmates and felt like I had a connection with the teachers.
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