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Forum -> Yom Tov / Holidays -> Pesach
Off the derech brother
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amother
OP


 

Post Wed, Apr 20 2022, 4:12 pm
my brother has been of the D for years. noone really knows what he does and what he doesnt do religously. maybe he is still traditional. he keeps it a big secret and we dont ask.
we always have seder together with him.- his choice.
a few years ago he was extremely rude at the seder and cause my parents a lot of tzaar. we went to tharepy and kind of worked it out. since then things have been more or less fine.
this year he came to the seder that I hosted.
I am 8 months pregnant, have an almost two year old who is the cutest- but quite a handful, my oldest sons bar mitzva is on sunday isru chag, we are in a very very difficult financial state, and I hosted my parents and my brother and my inlaws and my brother inlaw.

the seder was medium- not slow and not fast, my husband did lots of fun drama for the kids, great wines and delicious food.
not so many divrie Torah, reading through the hagadah at a normal pace, singing and fun.

this was all a backround to my difficulty:
the fact that he is off the d is upsetting and hard, but we have learned to live with it. but why am I so upset? because of the lack of menchlichkiet.
he couldnt be bothered to let me know if he was coming till erev yomtov.
he sat totally silently with a tisha baav face the entire seder.
he didnt ask if he could bring anything or ehlp out before chag.
he did bring a bottle of wine.
he walked over right before seder and never helped set up or clear.
he didnt interact with the kids at all, me or my husband just barely during seder.
I asked him jokingly during the seder if he was surviving and he answered- no.- so I said at least you arent suffering - he said yes I am.
at the end of seder he said- I think I need gariatric rehab to recuperate from your seder.
I had told hime earlier that he was welcome to come back the next day if he wanted or I would pack up food for him- whatever was good. he got up after nirtzh- didnt do the singing at the end and said- "I FORSURE will not be coming back tomorow. I smiled even though I was so hurt- and packed up beautiful yomtov food for him.- I wasnt hurt because he wasnt coming- I was hurt the way he said it.

I decided that no matter what I would end on a nice loving note. I gave him a big hug and said to him- thank you for coming I love you you are the best litlle brother in the world. I worked on myself to really mean it.
he mumbled something and said- I dont know if ill come to the bar mitzva on sunday. I said thats fine, whatever is good for you.

he left.
when I shared all of my difficult feelings with my husband he was so loving an supportive but he also said, look he is in his thirty's he still isnt married with a family, at least he comes... all the loving , fforgiving otd talk. and thats how my parents talk too. "look sweetheart how much you have: a family yidishkiet... you have so much and he has nothing) why does everyone forgive OTD kids/ grownups to behave this way.
I ahve learned to accept that his relationship with Hashem is not my buisness.
but why is being of the d an excuse for behaving like this.
dont be frum, but sa thank you. dont be frum, but offer to help.....my gosh- you see your sister 8 months pregnant.
I am also so sad for him. whats going to be someday when he gets married? will he behave like this to his wife, her family?
if I try to say anything he jsut blows me off and is rude to me. or he will just say, I did my best - you dont know how hard it is for me to come be part of a frum seder, I do it for aba and ima , leave me alone.
no apology, no call saying thnaks for hosting me, lovely seder (which it really was) no checking in....
sigh sigh sigh
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thesoundofmusic




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Apr 20 2022, 4:26 pm
any ideas?
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BatyaEsther




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Apr 20 2022, 4:26 pm
That sounds really hard.
What you did was tremendous.
It was such beautiful chinuch for your children.
Kibud am v’em for your parents.
An amazing kiddush Hashem and lovely representation of frum Jews.


Clearly he has issues and baggage. They are not your problem.
They are not an excuse, but they do exist. Let me say thank you on his behalf. Even if he doesn’t realize and appreciate, Hashem knows.
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thesoundofmusic




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Apr 20 2022, 4:29 pm
you are so wonderful! your words gave me chizuk. thank you. it means a lot to me that you took a moment to reply.
chag sameach:)
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amother
Candycane


 

Post Wed, Apr 20 2022, 4:38 pm
OP, you didn't go anon in your last post.
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amother
Pansy


 

Post Wed, Apr 20 2022, 4:40 pm
That sounds really hard, OP. I'm sorry he behaved this way. Let me just say:

1. You are totally and utterly awesome for the way you handled it. Kol hakavod for doing the right thing despite the hurt and bad feelings. You surely made Hashem very proud!

2. Keep davening for him. Things can still change for the better.

Hugs and b'shaa tova. May your efforts be a zechus for an easy delivery.
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Nechamie




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Apr 20 2022, 4:41 pm
I have tears reading this. You are such a special person! No more words just tears of joy that your brother has you in his life.
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thesoundofmusic




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Apr 20 2022, 4:46 pm
thank you to all the צדיקות! on imamother. your kind words mean so much to me. this is really healing and giving me chizuk that I need. amen to the brachos.
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amother
Chicory


 

Post Wed, Apr 20 2022, 4:59 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
my brother has been of the D for years. noone really knows what he does and what he doesnt do religously. maybe he is still traditional. he keeps it a big secret and we dont ask.
we always have seder together with him.- his choice.
a few years ago he was extremely rude at the seder and cause my parents a lot of tzaar. we went to tharepy and kind of worked it out. since then things have been more or less fine.
this year he came to the seder that I hosted.
I am 8 months pregnant, have an almost two year old who is the cutest- but quite a handful, my oldest sons bar mitzva is on sunday isru chag, we are in a very very difficult financial state, and I hosted my parents and my brother and my inlaws and my brother inlaw.

the seder was medium- not slow and not fast, my husband did lots of fun drama for the kids, great wines and delicious food.
not so many divrie Torah, reading through the hagadah at a normal pace, singing and fun.

this was all a backround to my difficulty:
the fact that he is off the d is upsetting and hard, but we have learned to live with it. but why am I so upset? because of the lack of menchlichkiet.
he couldnt be bothered to let me know if he was coming till erev yomtov.
he sat totally silently with a tisha baav face the entire seder.
he didnt ask if he could bring anything or ehlp out before chag.
he did bring a bottle of wine.
he walked over right before seder and never helped set up or clear.
he didnt interact with the kids at all, me or my husband just barely during seder.
I asked him jokingly during the seder if he was surviving and he answered- no.- so I said at least you arent suffering - he said yes I am.
at the end of seder he said- I think I need gariatric rehab to recuperate from your seder.
I had told hime earlier that he was welcome to come back the next day if he wanted or I would pack up food for him- whatever was good. he got up after nirtzh- didnt do the singing at the end and said- "I FORSURE will not be coming back tomorow. I smiled even though I was so hurt- and packed up beautiful yomtov food for him.- I wasnt hurt because he wasnt coming- I was hurt the way he said it.

I decided that no matter what I would end on a nice loving note. I gave him a big hug and said to him- thank you for coming I love you you are the best litlle brother in the world. I worked on myself to really mean it.
he mumbled something and said- I dont know if ill come to the bar mitzva on sunday. I said thats fine, whatever is good for you.

he left.
when I shared all of my difficult feelings with my husband he was so loving an supportive but he also said, look he is in his thirty's he still isnt married with a family, at least he comes... all the loving , fforgiving otd talk. and thats how my parents talk too. "look sweetheart how much you have: a family yidishkiet... you have so much and he has nothing) why does everyone forgive OTD kids/ grownups to behave this way.
I ahve learned to accept that his relationship with Hashem is not my buisness.
but why is being of the d an excuse for behaving like this.
dont be frum, but sa thank you. dont be frum, but offer to help.....my gosh- you see your sister 8 months pregnant.
I am also so sad for him. whats going to be someday when he gets married? will he behave like this to his wife, her family?
if I try to say anything he jsut blows me off and is rude to me. or he will just say, I did my best - you dont know how hard it is for me to come be part of a frum seder, I do it for aba and ima , leave me alone.
no apology, no call saying thnaks for hosting me, lovely seder (which it really was) no checking in....
sigh sigh sigh


You’re looking at things backwards. His rudeness, lack of basic mentshlichkeit, and inconsideration has nothing to do with being OTD. He’s miserable and maybe suffering some emotional problems so that’s probably why he went OTD. That is probably also why he’s not married. Who would want to marry someone like that? Is he in therapy? He sure needs to be. There’s no excuse for the way he treated you and the family. You were more than gracious and he shouldn’t feel like he’s doing everyone a favor by coming and acting so disgusting, he should realize you did him the favor hosting him and also going out of your way to pack him up food after he said he’s not coming back. I can’t say enough how wrong he is and how he should not be accommodated as long as he portrays this terrible behavior and lack of any gratitude, much less not helping at all. You should have a talk with him and tell him how hurtful his behavior was to you. I’m not sure it’ll penetrate but it’s worth a try. I wouldn’t keep inviting him when he shows this disrespect.
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Zehava




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Apr 20 2022, 5:03 pm
Yeah I think it comes from sort of thinking that if you’re not perfectly nice and forgiving then them being otd will be your fault. Or being nice will “bring them back” or whatever. I disagree with this approach. Your sanity and mental health come first. There’s no reason to welcome and coddle someone who’s being openly rude.
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thesoundofmusic




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Apr 20 2022, 5:10 pm
I truly dont believe in the being all nice- thats what everyone has been doing for years - and it has not helped. but then again being mean forsure would not help either. I am not bing engaging. I never even invited him to seder. my mother let hi know that seder was by me and he was welcome to come if he wanted to. I never coddle him any more. I am just kind to him. family dynamics around an off the d sibiling are alway quite intricate.
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amother
Petunia


 

Post Wed, Apr 20 2022, 5:27 pm
Does he suffer from any mental health issues?
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thesoundofmusic




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Apr 20 2022, 5:35 pm
no. he is just a very difficult person. he has been like that ever since he was a child. the kid who sticks his tounge out in the family picture, the kids who has a tantrum when everyone else is having a nice tie, the kid who doesnt listen, who gets in trouble in school. who is always rude...... really he is super super smart, and so talented in many areas. he has lots of friends and is really nice to all of them. he does amazing acts of chessed with other people- not in the family, and has a great sense of humor. he would benifit tremendously form tharepyand more self awarness about his behaviour in the family. we come from a very normal loving family, but just like in every family there were certain issues, and dynamics that seemed to affect him very deeply. I have tried talking to him about these things, to create an awareness and help him understand that this is not abuse or extreme behaviour, just normal mishagases that can go on in any family. but he seems to not be able to relate. if he could understand these things he would probably see how they affect you and you learn to let go and move on. but he seeems to be super unable to deal.
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vintagebknyc




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Apr 20 2022, 5:38 pm
amother [ Petunia ] wrote:
Does he suffer from any mental health issues?


I was just going to ask this. I have any number of friends on and off many different derechs, and this screams not of OTD behavior but of behavior of an unhappy, clinically depressed person.

Rude doesn't equal OTD, lateness doesn't equal OTD, neither does non committal behavior, grouchiness, not helping when you're pregnant, etc. There's more than OTD going on with your brother.
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Zehava




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Apr 20 2022, 6:00 pm
thesoundofmusic wrote:
no. he is just a very difficult person. he has been like that ever since he was a child. the kid who sticks his tounge out in the family picture, the kids who has a tantrum when everyone else is having a nice tie, the kid who doesnt listen, who gets in trouble in school. who is always rude...... really he is super super smart, and so talented in many areas. he has lots of friends and is really nice to all of them. he does amazing acts of chessed with other people- not in the family, and has a great sense of humor. he would benifit tremendously form tharepyand more self awarness about his behaviour in the family. we come from a very normal loving family, but just like in every family there were certain issues, and dynamics that seemed to affect him very deeply. I have tried talking to him about these things, to create an awareness and help him understand that this is not abuse or extreme behaviour, just normal mishagases that can go on in any family. but he seems to not be able to relate. if he could understand these things he would probably see how they affect you and you learn to let go and move on. but he seeems to be super unable to deal.

This explains a whole lot.
He’s the scapegoat. You don’t need to “help him understand that this is not abuse”.
He experienced it as trauma. He’s been labeled as the problem kid. And it’s affecting him to this day.
Which is not to say that he’s right to be rude. But there is obviously way more at play here. The fact that he’s nice to his friends is also telling.
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allthingsblue




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Apr 20 2022, 6:13 pm
Really sounds like depression or other mental illness.
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notshanarishona




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Apr 20 2022, 6:19 pm
It's really special and not something to take for granted that he is still trying to be a part of family get togethers. I would take religion out of the picture and invite him for simchas or get togethers but the seider is not really something that would be even semi interesting for someone who isn't frum . It's not surprising that he was bored . Is there any reason why your parents specifically invite him ? It sounds like setting all of yourselves up for unpleasantness.
Unfortunately it's very typical that when someone goes otd it's hard for them to be around religious ceremonies and not be cynical.
(I have 2 brothers who went otd and plenty of experience in this area ).
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amother
DarkPurple


 

Post Wed, Apr 20 2022, 6:23 pm
Op you are amazing . I agree with above poster-his manners or lack there of are not because he is OTD. There’s more to this story. You made a beautiful presentation, shared your delicious food and warm home and he acted like he was in a torture chamber. He is clearly unhappy with himself and conflicted with his life choices . Poor him, poor you , your poor parents. Keep up the good work and know that you are totally justified in the way you feel.
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naomi2




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Apr 20 2022, 6:53 pm
Op you are a tzadekes, acting so kind and loving toward your brother with just a slap in the face in return. I hope things get better for you, it is very difficult to have a sibling like this.
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amother
Lightyellow


 

Post Wed, Apr 20 2022, 7:32 pm
Just throwing this out there because really I know zilch about your family. From the way I see it, at some point it's almost impossible to reverse one's family role if they have been living it for so long. Everybody has there part to play in that role and how they fit with the other person. He's the "difficult one" and everytime he is around family, that is what comes out. Must have been engrained in him young for him not to grow out of it. As you said OP, clearly family dynamics did affect him and still does. B"H, he is able to have friends and he is kind to others.
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