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Women working - Normal hishtadlus?
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amother
OP


 

Post Thu, Apr 28 2022, 5:33 pm
amother [ Red ] wrote:
Who says it's hishtadlus? I think this is a good discussion to have with a Rav or mentor.

The Rabbanim I and my friends have spoken to over the years seem to feel that this is a normal part of hishtadlus. I guess I'm wondering why?

Especially as imamothers seem to feel that it's a lack of bitachon.
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amother
Red


 

Post Thu, Apr 28 2022, 5:36 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
The Rabbanim I and my friends have spoken to over the years seem to feel that this is a normal part of hishtadlus. I guess I'm wondering why?


Hishtadlus doesn't have one definition, it means something else for everyone according to their circumstances.
The circumstances of today's generation, is such that many women need to work to make ends meet,
thus making it proper hishtadlus according to the circumstances.
I also think that many many people aren't ready to give up the high standards of living that have become acceptable in our communities, to the point of luxuries being considered standard must haves.
So in a way, we're doing it to ourselves.
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flowerpower




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Apr 28 2022, 5:42 pm
I honestly don’t think a woman is mechiyuv to work if she has a very busy household and she is already past the shmatta stage. The couple should come up with a better plan somehow. No woman can do it all!!!
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keym




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Apr 28 2022, 5:44 pm
Hishtadlus is complicated.
The wife working may be excessive hishtadlus, but on the other hand, asking for a tuition reduction may also be excessive hishtadlus.
Could be, ideally, the husband is supposed to work AND sign full-tution contract, believing that Hashem will provide them with the money needed to send their children to yeshiva and BY, and haggling for a lower tuition is excessive hishtadlus.
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amother
OP


 

Post Thu, Apr 28 2022, 5:51 pm
amother [ Red ] wrote:
Hishtadlus doesn't have one definition, it means something else for everyone according to their circumstances.
The circumstances of today's generation, is such that many women need to work to make ends meet,
thus making it proper hishtadlus according to the circumstances.
I also think that many many people aren't ready to give up the high standards of living that have become acceptable in our communities, to the point of luxuries being considered standard must haves.
So in a way, we're doing it to ourselves.

Neither I nor my friends have too many luxuries, unless you consider running water and electricity luxuries. The women I know who are working for luxuries know good and well that they are working for extras.

Oh, and I forgot tuition. My tuition right now is around $3000 a month (it used to be $5000), some might consider that a luxury but obviously in the frum community it's not.
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amother
Red


 

Post Thu, Apr 28 2022, 6:00 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
Neither I nor my friends have too many luxuries, unless you consider running water and electricity luxuries. The women I know who are working for luxuries know good and well that they are working for extras.

Oh, and I forgot tuition. My tuition right now is around $3000 a month (it used to be $5000), some might consider that a luxury but obviously in the frum community it's not.

Luxuries have become so standard, that no one will admit that it's a luxury.
A doona is a luxury, no matter how many excuses and justifications women give how they must have it.
An expensive stroller is a luxury.
Expensive clothes and shoes are a luxury.
The amount of vacations and vacation destinations that have become standard in our communities are a luxury.
The standards of how many spend their yom tov are a luxury.
The simcha standards in our communities are a luxury.
The houses that have become standard in many communities are a luxury.
Kids riding an electric scooter or hoverboard is a luxury.
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imacoolmom




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Apr 28 2022, 6:37 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
I think the million dollar question is, if man was the one who was cursed with the ol of parnasah, why is it considered hishtadlus for women to work as well?

Well finally, I was lurking here waiting for someone to bring up this point exactly OP!!!
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amother
Cappuccino


 

Post Thu, Apr 28 2022, 6:57 pm
I don't know if it's hishtadlus or not but I will say what happened to me. When my oldest was born 18 years ago I was working in Manhattan and they didn't want to take me back part time so I stopped working . Dh was working rent was much less than it's today we had govt help and bh made ends meet .
Fast forward had another 3 kids no more government help many more expenses. When ds Was around 12.5 I found a PT job in a office not far from me. I worked there for 2.5 years and in that time made 2 bar mitvhas one after another and had another baby. Then suddenly without warning I was fired for no reason . I said hashem took care of us then and now we don't need the extra money . I was home for another 3 years when this January another pt job 5 minutes from my house with better pay literally "fell into my lap". Bh I'm working there now and enjoying it .
I feel like hashem is taking care of me bh
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amother
OP


 

Post Thu, Apr 28 2022, 7:09 pm
amother [ Red ] wrote:
Luxuries have become so standard, that no one will admit that it's a luxury.
A doona is a luxury, no matter how many excuses and justifications women give how they must have it.
An expensive stroller is a luxury.
Expensive clothes and shoes are a luxury.
The amount of vacations and vacation destinations that have become standard in our communities are a luxury.
The standards of how many spend their yom tov are a luxury.
The simcha standards in our communities are a luxury.
The houses that have become standard in many communities are a luxury.
Kids riding an electric scooter or hoverboard is a luxury.

When my second son was born, I bought a double umbrella stroller. I couldn't afford anything else.

Expensive clothes? What do you call expensive? I spend $10 for my tops, kids clothing in Children's Place.

My mortgage is around $1200 a month.

Never had an electric scooter or hoverboard (I think that's nuts).

Not everyone is working for luxuries. Some people really ARE working for necessities...

ETA: we went on vacation ONCE ten years ago (we're married over 20 years). Surprise surprise NOT everyone goes on expensive vacations or any vacation for that matter.
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amother
Puce


 

Post Thu, Apr 28 2022, 7:14 pm
amother [ Red ] wrote:
Luxuries have become so standard, that no one will admit that it's a luxury.
A doona is a luxury, no matter how many excuses and justifications women give how they must have it.
An expensive stroller is a luxury.
Expensive clothes and shoes are a luxury.
The amount of vacations and vacation destinations that have become standard in our communities are a luxury.
The standards of how many spend their yom tov are a luxury.
The simcha standards in our communities are a luxury.
The houses that have become standard in many communities are a luxury.
Kids riding an electric scooter or hoverboard is a luxury.


We do not pay for a single thing on this list and I still need to work. (I’m op of the thread where people told me to stop working.)

Doona: we have a graco snap n go
Stroller: we got an uppababy gift from my parents 9 years ago, we used it for 3 kids so far.
Vacation: haven’t been in 4 years. Not even a local overnight.
Clothing: H&M Zara and Amazon. And children’s place and target
Simchas: we’re saving for modest simchas.
House: ours in plain jane, nothing fancy but I’m very grateful for it.
Cars: bought toyotas. No leases for us

Tuition: I pay full

Even without any luxuries life is expensive when people deny that I feel very invalidated.
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amother
Puce


 

Post Thu, Apr 28 2022, 7:17 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
I think the million dollar question is, if man was the one who was cursed with the ol of parnasah, why is it considered hishtadlus for women to work as well?


Get an epidural to lessen the curse Smile

I think the men still bear the larger burden of it, but I do wonder that as well.
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amother
Red


 

Post Thu, Apr 28 2022, 7:26 pm
amother [ Puce ] wrote:
We do not pay for a single thing on this list and I still need to work. (I’m op of the thread where people told me to stop working.)

Doona: we have a graco snap n go
Stroller: we got an uppababy gift from my parents 9 years ago, we used it for 3 kids so far.
Vacation: haven’t been in 4 years. Not even a local overnight.
Clothing: H&M Zara and Amazon. And children’s place and target
Simchas: we’re saving for modest simchas.
House: ours in plain jane, nothing fancy but I’m very grateful for it.
Cars: bought toyotas. No leases for us

Tuition: I pay full

Even without any luxuries life is expensive when people deny that I feel very invalidated.


I believe you as we're leading a similar lifestyle. But we're the exception, rather then the rule. We're the "nebby" family.
Yes, life is expensive even without luxuries.
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amother
Celeste


 

Post Thu, Apr 28 2022, 7:28 pm
I know someone who believes very strongly that mothers belong home with their children. Her lifestyle is quite close to poverty. Her home is full of broken furniture, and her kid’s clothing has seen better days. HER preference is to be home with her kids, but in a case like this, don’t you think the whole family would benefit from her going out to work?
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amother
Cappuccino


 

Post Thu, Apr 28 2022, 7:41 pm
I also forgot to mention in my post that I'm not working for the luxeries. Nor do we own any of the stuff mentioned. Made very standard bar mitvahs and because I was working at the time we didn't have any chovos from it.
Now I'm Trying to save up for my son's wedding in the right time iyh.
I really wanted to go every summer to the bungalow colony but we stayed in the city because we cudnt afford it.
Don't own a car. If we need one we rent. Don't go away for yt ECT ECT
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amother
Cobalt


 

Post Thu, Apr 28 2022, 7:42 pm
amother [ Puce ] wrote:
Get an epidural to lessen the curse Smile

I think the men still bear the larger burden of it, but I do wonder that as well.


This topic really is confusing. A Rav I once spoke to made it sound like the burden is on the man, and if the wife works she is "helping him". I do work, but I see that in my (mostly chassidish) community, there are many families making it work nicely without the wife working. It's a good question, especially in the case of poverty, if it's considered hishtadlus for her to work and not rely on miracles...?
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amother
Impatiens


 

Post Thu, Apr 28 2022, 7:43 pm
amother [ Celeste ] wrote:
I know someone who believes very strongly that mothers belong home with their children. Her lifestyle is quite close to poverty. Her home is full of broken furniture, and her kid’s clothing has seen better days. HER preference is to be home with her kids, but in a case like this, don’t you think the whole family would benefit from her going out to work?


That's your opinion..but whose to say if she would work they'd be better off? Living with broken furniture is not the worst thing out there. Maybe her house is a calmer place with her being home. Not everyone can juggle everything. Everyone should do what works for them.
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amother
Red


 

Post Thu, Apr 28 2022, 8:29 pm
amother [ Celeste ] wrote:
I know someone who believes very strongly that mothers belong home with their children. Her lifestyle is quite close to poverty. Her home is full of broken furniture, and her kid’s clothing has seen better days. HER preference is to be home with her kids, but in a case like this, don’t you think the whole family would benefit from her going out to work?


That's her choice to make. Maybe it's physically too hard for her to work and run the home. If the house is full of broken furniture, I doubt her working would make such a huge difference in the situation. And she'd need to pay for childcare, a work appropriate wardrobe....
Many kids are happier with broken furniture and a present mother than a harried nervous mother that either walks in with them or later than them..... it's all in the attitude.
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amother
Puce


 

Post Thu, Apr 28 2022, 8:38 pm
amother [ Red ] wrote:
I believe you as we're leading a similar lifestyle. But we're the exception, rather then the rule. We're the "nebby" family.
Yes, life is expensive even without luxuries.


Most of the people I see who do have luxuries are those who can afford it, usually because the husband has a business or is in real estate.
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amother
Red


 

Post Thu, Apr 28 2022, 8:43 pm
amother [ Puce ] wrote:
Most of the people I see who do have luxuries are those who can afford it, usually because the husband has a business or is in real estate.

No, not everyone that has luxuries that became standard must haves (doona, $1200 stroller, expensive clothing/shoes/family vacation to Florida for midwinter......) husbands own businesses or real estate. Many of the men don't even work. And I'm sure that not everyone can afford it but get it because of community standards. They don't look at it as luxuries, it's standard. It's become standard in my community for kids to ride electric scooters and Segways, not all fathers own business.... not all families are rich. My neighbor that gets tomchei shabbos, their kids are riding a Segway and electric scooters. Skewed priorities.
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amother
Puce


 

Post Thu, Apr 28 2022, 8:44 pm
amother [ Red ] wrote:
No, not everyone that has luxuries that became standard must haves (doona, $1200 stroller, expensive clothing/shoes/family vacation to Florida for midwinter......) husbands own businesses or real estate. And I'm sure that not everyone can afford it but get it because of community standards. They don't look at it as luxuries, it's standard.


I literally don’t know anyone who does these things that can’t afford them- or they get it gifted from their parents.
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