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Noahides believing in Yoshke?
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Tehilla




 
 
 
 

Post Mon, May 12 2008, 11:24 am
Quote:
(She also believes that J. is the "Messiah" but that's ok since she's a gentile).


actually I think it's not right according to the Seven Noahide laws!
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ChossidMom




 
 
 
 

Post Mon, May 12 2008, 11:41 am
Look, from what I understand, if a Jew believes in J. that's Avoda Zara. If a gentile believes in J. it's not.

Am I mistaken? If I am please tell me and I'll tell her!

She's always trying to do more stuff "for God". They build a tent on Succos etc. etc. I'm always telling her that she only has to keep the 7 mitzvot. She says it's not enough!
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Tehilla




 
 
 
 

Post Mon, May 12 2008, 11:47 am
Yes, gentiles must also reject idolatry. For them to believe in j. is avoda zara. They are required to also believe in Hashem as the only G-d.

I am waiting for the exact sources to quote to you. There are several.
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louche




 
 
 
 

Post Mon, May 12 2008, 11:52 am
Tehilla wrote:
Yes, gentiles must also reject idolatry. For them to believe in j. is avoda zara. They are required to also believe in Hashem as the only G-d.



Tehilla didn't say her friend believes in J as G-d, but as the messiah. Noahides don't have to believe in a messiah, but neither are they forbidden to believe in one.

why should a noahide be forbidden to believe in someone as the messiah when it's apparently perfectly ok for a jew to believe in someone as the messiah?
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ChossidMom




 
 
 
 

Post Mon, May 12 2008, 11:57 am
Tehilla,
My friend doesn't believe in the holy trinity garbage. She believes in one God. She just believes that the Messiah has been here already and will come again. Is this assur for Noachides?
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mimivan




 
 
 
 

Post Mon, May 12 2008, 1:52 pm
ChossidMom wrote:
Tehilla,
My friend doesn't believe in the holy trinity garbage. She believes in one God. She just believes that the Messiah has been here already and will come again. Is this assur for Noachides?


I went to a shiur in which the Rabbi was talking about the 7 noahide laws. he said the non-jews can believe in Yoshke as an intermediary, as long as they don't believe he is G-d. (Ideally, Noahide should not believe in Yoske at all, but he said a gentile who believes in Yoshke as a prophet or a messiah is not guilty of avodas zara if they seperate that from G-d)

If they pray in a church they should not have any images of him or bow down to any pictures or statues.

Chossidmom...I think your non-Jewish friend "celebrates" Succos because it is written that all non-Jews will bring sacrifices (and did) during Succos...but living in the Succa is OUR mitzvah (I know she means well, but...)
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ChossidMom




 
 
 
 

Post Mon, May 12 2008, 1:57 pm
I told her she doesn't have to keep all kinds of jewish laws. She just keeps saying how much she loves God and wants to do stuff for Him. It's not really a sukka anyway. It's just a tent. She really is a special person.
Thanks for the Yoshke as Messiah update...
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mimivan




 
 
 
 

Post Mon, May 12 2008, 2:02 pm
I understand why this thread was split...but my answer is different from the title....the Rabbi was talking about NON-JEWS (non Noahides) believing in Yoshke...I think with Noahides, one should not believe in Yoshke...I would need to ask the Rabbi about this to clarify...

All he was saying is those who believe in Yoshke as an intermediary but not as Gd (a non-Jew) is not committing avodas zarah...but I think one who commits himself to being a Noahide is on a higher standard and more is expected. They should be more machmir in distancing themselves from a.z by not believing in Yoshke at all...and they should believe in the Jewish messiah...

I think so but am not an expert in these matters.
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Imaonwheels




 
 
 
 

Post Mon, May 12 2008, 3:34 pm
I used to work for 7 mitzvot researching and writing. Believing in Yoshke is not avoda zara, it is shituf. HaShem + someone else c"v. This is permitted for a [gentile]. However - he cannot pray in a church that has statues or kiss the cross.

Of course we believe it is nonsense and totally assur for a Jew.

Most Bnai Noach go through a process where they hold some reverence for J as a prophet or such but as they realize they have to learn with Jews they are gradually weaned away.
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chaylizi




 
 
 
 

Post Mon, May 12 2008, 3:50 pm
it is a machlokes in the rishonim whether christianity is considered avoda zara. not everyone agrees that this is so.
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Atali




 
 
 
 

Post Mon, May 12 2008, 5:43 pm
Imaonwheels wrote:
I used to work for 7 mitzvot researching and writing. Believing in Yoshke is not avoda zara, it is shituf. HaShem + someone else c"v. This is permitted for a [gentile]. However - he cannot pray in a church that has statues or kiss the cross.

Of course we believe it is nonsense and totally assur for a Jew.

Most Bnai Noach go through a process where they hold some reverence for J as a prophet or such but as they realize they have to learn with Jews they are gradually weaned away.


I don't think that is so pashut, I think that it is a machlokes if I recall correctly.

But anyway, according to my DH (who is into this topic) non-Jews may take on other mitzvos if they so choose (although there is no reason for them to do so), except for a few such as shabbos. But if they do so they must keep it the way that Jews do and not create their own religion. They also shouldn't keep religious holidays from other religions either.
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Crayon210




 
 
 
 

Post Mon, May 12 2008, 9:08 pm
Posts that were off-topic (and posts responding to those posts) were deleted. If you have any concerns, please PM me.
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Imaonwheels




 
 
 
 

Post Mon, May 12 2008, 9:12 pm
chaylizi wrote:
it is a machlokes in the rishonim whether christianity is considered avoda zara. not everyone agrees that this is so.

That is because in the time of the rishonim there was no such thing as a church without statues. That is avoda zaza by all. And it is when you are talking about Jews, which is probably what is under discussion there. It has been a long time since we talked about teaching the non jews.
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Motek




 
 
 
 

Post Tue, May 13 2008, 9:29 am
ChossidMom wrote:
(She also believes that J. is the "Messiah" but that's ok since she's a gentile).


That's not necessarily ok. Depends on whether a non-Jew's obligation to observe the Noahide Laws, which includes belief in G-d, allows for "shituf" - the opposite of G-d is One. In other words, is a "trinity" against the Noahide Laws or not. Different halachic views on this.
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Imaonwheels




 
 
 
 

Post Tue, May 13 2008, 9:48 am
It is being taught by those who are handling Bnai Noach both within Chabad and out as not being assur.
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Motek




 
 
 
 

Post Tue, May 13 2008, 12:50 pm
mimivan wrote:
I understand why this thread was split...but my answer is different from the title....the Rabbi was talking about NON-JEWS (non Noahides) believing in Yoshke...


I am confused. Non-Jews? Non-Noahides? What do you mean.

Non-Jews are obligated in the 7 Noahide Laws. Either they keep them or they don't.
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Imaonwheels




 
 
 
 

Post Tue, May 13 2008, 9:10 pm
And the poskim who work with Non Jews who have taken on the 7 mitzvot have not made shituf assur.
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Motek




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, May 15 2008, 3:52 pm
Imaonwheels wrote:
It is being taught by those who are handling Bnai Noach both within Chabad and out as not being assur.


That's odd when the Rebbe says that Christianity is avoda zara:

Sefer Hisvaduos 5744:1:1271
http://www.otzar770.com/librar.....Id=20

and the same thing is said in Likkutei Sichos vol. 37 p. 198 in a letter written by the Rebbe

In neither place does it say whether the reason is because Christianity is avoda zara mamosh and not shituf, or because shituf is forbidden for a [gentile].
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mimivan




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, May 15 2008, 4:34 pm
Motek wrote:
mimivan wrote:
I understand why this thread was split...but my answer is different from the title....the Rabbi was talking about NON-JEWS (non Noahides) believing in Yoshke...


I am confused. Non-Jews? Non-Noahides? What do you mean.

Non-Jews are obligated in the 7 Noahide Laws. Either they keep them or they don't.


I know all non-jews should be Noahides. But the Rabbi giving the shiur was talking about non-jews who are protestants and don't really believe Yoshke is literally G-d (but believe he is the messiah) and don't have statues in their churches. He said this, for them, was not avodas zarah..

But a Noahide makes a commitment and usually is encouraged not to go to any churches etc...
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Imaonwheels




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, May 15 2008, 10:32 pm
Motek, 2 Chabad rabbonim had to approve every pamphlet I wrote. The ikkar prob for non Jews are those churches with statues. The definition of shituf is that there is HaShem who is strongest but other power(s) as well. That suits the view of most of them about Yoshke.
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