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Why isn't buying life insurance a value in frum society?
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amother




Milk
 

Post Mon, May 09 2022, 3:10 pm
Oldest wrote:
I believe the program you are referring to is called Areivim

Israel has something similar, and it is called Keren Yachad.

It's not a replacement for life insurance, it just helps pay for smachot.
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amother




Grape
 

Post Mon, May 09 2022, 3:15 pm
I agree people should have life insurance. But life insurance isn't going to cover all expenses for the rest of the almana's wife. It's supposed to cover the next few years so she can get back on her feet and be financially stable those first few years.

Think of it this way. Let's say the fellow who died earned 100K a year. A 1 million dollar policy would only be equivalent to 10 years of working. If he died when she was 30--she'd only be "supported" by the life insurance until 40.
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amother




OP
 

Post Mon, May 09 2022, 3:16 pm
amother [ Burlywood ] wrote:
Why is it any different than hachnosas kallah? A family, in theory, should have enough saved up to be able to marry of their children without tzedaka. Are you also against this form of tzedaka?


This is a false comparison. If a family can't pay for a wedding, they can take tzedaka for the wedding. If they can't pay for life insurance, they should similarly take tzedaka to pay for the life insurance. But to take tzedakah because you were too irresponsible to get life insurance is a different story.
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amother




Oleander
 

Post Mon, May 09 2022, 3:17 pm
.
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amother




OP
 

Post Mon, May 09 2022, 3:20 pm
amother [ DarkGreen ] wrote:
OP, in theory yes people should have a policy that is enough. But do you realize how expensive such a policy would be? Not everyone can afford that. Let's say a person buys such a policy, but now cannot afford tuition. Or cannot afford food so he needs tomchei shabbos. Is that worth it?

Most people do not have an unlimited budget to afford anything and everything. We need to be responsible, and do proper hishtadlus to try to cover both current expenses and reasonably plan for the future as best as we can.

And BH we are part of a wonderful nation that will step in and help when needed without judgment.


If people can't afford something for insurance or tuition or whatever, the community can help them. It's far cheaper for the community to help people pay insurance premiums than pay $2M sums when tragedy strikes. They community is going to "bail" them out anyway, so they might as well help them when it's cheaper.


amother [ Grape ] wrote:
I agree people should have life insurance. But life insurance isn't going to cover all expenses for the rest of the almana's wife. It's supposed to cover the next few years so she can get back on her feet and be financially stable those first few years.

Think of it this way. Let's say the fellow who died earned 100K a year. A 1 million dollar policy would only be equivalent to 10 years of working. If he died when she was 30--she'd only be "supported" by the life insurance until 40.


It should cover whatever expenses she needs so that the community doesn't have to pay for it.
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amother




Hawthorn
 

Post Mon, May 09 2022, 3:26 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
If people can't afford something for insurance or tuition or whatever, the community can help them. It's far cheaper for the community to help people pay insurance premiums than pay $2M sums when tragedy strikes. They community is going to "bail" them out anyway, so they might as well help them when it's cheaper.
.


Your calculations are wrong. If the community will have to pay tuition and life insurance for a large part of society, it will significantly more expensive than paying large sums to an unfortunate few.

You're correct that life insurance is an important value, and very few downplay that value. But when it comes down to choosing life necessities over something that happens to only a select few, it's not even a question.

Your frustration is being directed at the wrong issue. The issue on hand is that why is our lifestyle so financially oppressive that so many among us can't afford the basic values and necessities. Our lifestyle and system setup needs major overhauling. The life insurance issue is a just a mere symptom of a much larger problem.
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English3




 
 
 
 

Post Mon, May 09 2022, 3:31 pm
In the uk we have a system that is being used across the globe called areivim, this is a joint life insurance every time a member passes away the other people pay in a minimal fee of 30 something pounds. bh it doesn't happen to often. This system only works for people that have children that are still single. Afterwards a person can make there own policy.
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amother




Crocus
 

Post Mon, May 09 2022, 3:36 pm
Not everyone is able to get a whole life insurance (for eg you have a family member on ssi)
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Amarante




 
 
 
 

Post Mon, May 09 2022, 3:38 pm
amother [ Hawthorn ] wrote:
Your calculations are wrong. If the community will have to pay tuition and life insurance for a large part of society, it will significantly more expensive than paying large sums to an unfortunate few.

You're correct that life insurance is an important value, and very few downplay that value. But when it comes down to choosing life necessities over something that happens to only a select few, it's not even a question.

Your frustration is being directed at the wrong issue. The issue on hand is that why is our lifestyle so financially oppressive that so many among us can't afford the basic values and necessities. Our lifestyle and system setup needs major overhauling. The life insurance issue is a just a mere symptom of a much larger problem.


I don’t think it is logistically possible but all insurance is based on having as wide a group of people as possible so that the cost for each participant is low

That is the reason that large corporations can offer better benefits than small organizations or individuals since there is a broad range of ages and health conditions.

So theoretically if there were a large number of participants in the pool the cost for each indivual would be relatively small.

My problem with the manner in which funds are solicited is that it appears unfair since the success of a fund raising drive is going to depend on the prominence or other factors and not necessarily on the needs or worthiness. Not the same thing but there is unfairness that pretty blonde white girls will receive more police help if they go missing or are kidnapped than women of color who aren’t so media relatsble. 🤷‍♀️
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amother




Eggplant
 

Post Mon, May 09 2022, 3:38 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
This is a false comparison. If a family can't pay for a wedding, they can take tzedaka for the wedding. If they can't pay for life insurance, they should similarly take tzedaka to pay for the life insurance. But to take tzedakah because you were too irresponsible to get life insurance is a different story.


So did you miss the part where
1. People can have life insurance and it still won't be enough
2. People can be unable to afford life insurance.

My husband and I each have a $1 million policy. I got mine at age 23. With an autoimmune condition mine costs double his.
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amother




Periwinkle
 

Post Mon, May 09 2022, 3:39 pm
I don't know anyone that is able to have life insurance but doesn't have. If a mother of young children suddenly becomes a single parent, they often need more money than the life insurance policy and that's what the funds are collecting for. For them to be able to live worry free for as long as possible. OP, please fargin these almanos with your whole heart and go find something else to criticize about.
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Fab4




 
 
 
 

Post Mon, May 09 2022, 3:41 pm
We've had since our early 20's
My dh is just sensible like that bH.
May we never need to use it.
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amother




OP
 

Post Mon, May 09 2022, 3:44 pm
amother [ Eggplant ] wrote:
So did you miss the part where
1. People can have life insurance and it still won't be enough
2. People can be unable to afford life insurance.

My husband and I each have a $1 million policy. I got mine at age 23. With an autoimmune condition mine costs double his.


did you miss my many posts addressing this?

1) then they need more life insurance

2) then the community should help them buy it.
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amother




DarkPurple
 

Post Mon, May 09 2022, 3:46 pm
mushkamothers wrote:
It's also an incredible opportunity to do chessed for widows or orphans. A mitzvah doraisa. Not sure where it says in the Torah to support a Kollel lifestyle.


It’s complicated halachicly
Raising money for widows is ‘easier’ then widowers bec men are expected to support them homes. So not considered tzedakah if collect above certain amount. Almanah can collect any amount. I know women with large policies ppl quietly paid off mortgage and medical bills so she didn’t have to worry. It’s common.

Many ppl don’t think to get wives policies. Especially if they are the main bread winner they don’t get close to as much insurance as they need. Replacing a mother r’l is very expensive
(Besides our insurance broker pointed out its easier for an alman to remarry with children if he is okay money wise - while true - I didn’t appreciate hearing it)
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amother




OP
 

Post Mon, May 09 2022, 3:46 pm
amother [ Periwinkle ] wrote:
I don't know anyone that is able to have life insurance but doesn't have. If a mother of young children suddenly becomes a single parent, they often need more money than the life insurance policy and that's what the funds are collecting for. For them to be able to live worry free for as long as possible. OP, please fargin these almanos with your whole heart and go find something else to criticize about.


then they don't have enough life insurance

it's about having sufficient life insurance so you don't need to be a nebach and rely on your community to bail you about. having a minimal amount of life insurance so you can say you have it is irresponsible.
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WitchKitty




 
 
 
 

Post Mon, May 09 2022, 3:47 pm
In our community Areivim is very common.
There are groups of let's say 10,000 people. When anyone in the group dies, all the others chip in- out of ma'aser money.
The money goes to a fund to pay for the orphans weddings. But not more than 8 children, because they don't want the others to have to pay too much. There's a limit how much can be paid monthly.
We have very basic life insurance, plus Areivim.
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amother




DarkPurple
 

Post Mon, May 09 2022, 3:47 pm
amother [ Grape ] wrote:
I agree people should have life insurance. But life insurance isn't going to cover all expenses for the rest of the almana's wife. It's supposed to cover the next few years so she can get back on her feet and be financially stable those first few years.

Think of it this way. Let's say the fellow who died earned 100K a year. A 1 million dollar policy would only be equivalent to 10 years of working. If he died when she was 30--she'd only be "supported" by the life insurance until 40.


The million dollars is supposed to be invested and they are supposed to live off the earnings which should be around 70-100k and increase over time. If the money runs out it wasn’t managed well. The original 1 million should not be touched.
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amother




Hawthorn
 

Post Mon, May 09 2022, 3:48 pm
Amarante wrote:
I don’t think it is logistically possible but all insurance is based on having as wide a group of people as possible so that the cost for each participant is low

That is the reason that large corporations can offer better benefits than small organizations or individuals since there is a broad range of ages and health conditions.

So theoretically if there were a large number of participants in the pool the cost for each indivual would be relatively small.

My problem with the manner in which funds are solicited is that it appears unfair since the success of a fund raising drive is going to depend on the prominence or other factors and not necessarily on the needs or worthiness. Not the same thing but there is unfairness that pretty blonde white girls will receive more police help if they go missing or are kidnapped than women of color who aren’t so media relatsble. 🤷‍♀️



The cost is indeed low (though not as low for a substantial amount). But if you calculate low fees x 12 months x 15+ years for a good portion of society, it will amount to less than a couple of large payouts over the years. Small recurring amounts in large numbers add up to a significant number.
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amother




Offwhite
 

Post Mon, May 09 2022, 3:49 pm
Even if a person gets 20 year term when they get married, they're only covered until age 45 or so. Renewing at that point is far more expensive, and often coincides with the highest tuition payments (highest number of kids in high school, sem or yeshiva) and possibly even wedding expenses.
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Fab4




 
 
 
 

Post Mon, May 09 2022, 3:50 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
if a $1M policy isn't enough (based on # of kids, mortgage, cost of living, etc.), then get more. the point of buying insurance is to buy protect you if something bad happens -- what's the point of buying half as much insurance as you need?

why do these families expect the community to pay for their kids weddings or pay off their mortgage?

yes, it's going to be more expensive to get $2M of life insurance than $1M of life insurance, but that's life and you do what you have to do just as you pay the overpriced cost of pesach food or tuition because you have to.

and if people can't afford to buy enough insurance, then the community should help them. it's WAY WAY better for the community to help people pay their insurance premiums than to raise millions of dollars every time there's a tragedy.


Maybe because its just a precaution. Bh most people live to get their kids married off, or most of them.

Also why not give the money when it's actually needed to 1 or 2 people a year for example rather than help many more people pay for their life insurance which is just a precaution. It makes no sense!!
And it just goes to the insurance company rather than to actually help someone who's already an almana.


Last edited by Fab4 on Mon, May 09 2022, 3:51 pm; edited 1 time in total
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