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School ask for bank/credit card statements for scholarship
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amother
OP


 

Post Sat, May 14 2022, 7:44 pm
Is this mentchlach? I really see both sides. On one hand there are surely many people that are working in cash or getting big financial help from family. When the schools ask for the tax return, none of this shows up and people essentially scam the school.

To counter this problem the school is now asking for 12 months bank and credit card statements. This way a family claiming to make 120k a year pretax and let's say 8k monthly will be exposed if they have credit card bills (that they're paying) of 10k+ a month. Big deposits in bank accounts will be seen as well.

On the other hand I don't want some random board member seeing a cancelled check to my therapist. This is exceptionally private. I don't want anyone seeing how much money we spend on medication (even though the CC statement won't say what type of meds.) And above all I think it's an incredible intrusion of privacy to have to expose every single dollar I spend. But again, I hear their side as well.

What's more is that dh spoke to the financial office and they said that in fact, financial aid requests for next year are down around 20%. No doubt the reason for this is because people working in cash or who are getting lots of help didn't couldn't have the school find out about their lavish vacation, fancy sheitels, and expensive lifestyle in general. So their tactic is working.....but is it fair???
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amother
Zinnia


 

Post Sat, May 14 2022, 7:48 pm
I would say you have a right to privacy. On the other hand, if that's their policy, they have a right to deny you aid. I would ask them if there is a less intrusive way for you to document your situation. (I've heard of schools that ask for details such as the cars you drive and the vacations you take.)

I work in a yeshiva office and we offer parents to help them qualify for federal aid. Sometimes submitting proof of extra expenses is needed. So they'll submit therapy bills but with the name blacked out, so nobody working in the office will know which family member it's for.
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amother
Anemone


 

Post Sat, May 14 2022, 7:57 pm
It's awkward to be in this position. I'm sorry.
But yeah, if it's the kind of school where parents who have money are trying to scam the system to get tzedaka, I suppose they have no choice. You should definitely be able to black out the names of doctors being paid by check.

Scholarship committees aren't trying to pry into the details of your life. They are guardians of community tzedaka money and want to do the right thing by directing money where it's needed.

I will say that if the parent body has a significant number of cheaters, this might not be the best educational environment for your child.
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amother
Glitter


 

Post Sat, May 14 2022, 8:14 pm
I disclosed my mental health condition to my kids' school so they knew why I needed the break. They didn't spread it around to anyone. I think it's fair to ask for more invasive info if they're making sure tzedakah monies are going to the right place.
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amother
Bergamot


 

Post Sat, May 14 2022, 8:20 pm
I will say that the tuition assistance Process is really obnoxious . My tuition bill for 5 kids is over $100,000 (mod orth day school). So just to cover that you need $150,000 pre tax income, and then you need money for house, cars, insurance, utilities , food, clothes , camp , medical expenses, house repairs that are necessary, yuntif which can all add up to be another 250k pretax . So thats 400k without a vacation, house repair that’s more than just a repair, and just life incidentals that come up, and any household cleaning help that is very necessary sometimes. I don’t think most people bring in $400-$500k, but that’s what’s necessary to pay tuition for a mod orth day school, and if you don’t bring that in, you still need assistance. But it’s like standing naked and exposing every purchase, expense, gift. I would for sure pay full tuition if I could!!! But I can’t!!! OP I feel you. It’s not nice . I get that they have to streamline, but it’s just embarrassing and not nice to hold you to that kind of scrutiny .
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amother
NeonGreen


 

Post Sat, May 14 2022, 8:21 pm
That's really tough. Would they accept just the account summary from each month, ie so they can see the amounts going in and out? That would help for some of it.
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amother
Seashell


 

Post Sat, May 14 2022, 8:30 pm
Is it going before local ppl. That is unfair.
I know schools do it. But it’s a third party remote advisory committee paid to do this.
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amother
Dill


 

Post Sat, May 14 2022, 9:13 pm
We have to do this too. I get why they have to but it still hurts. And we really dont want to disclose everything to the school because they dont know how to keep their mouths shut. Like we had a team meeting for 1 kid with some special needs and there were staff members present whom I didnt think had any right to be there to hear about what meds my kid is on, what their issues are etc. They dont teach my child. Now they should know if someone needs therapy?
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amother
Trillium


 

Post Sat, May 14 2022, 10:35 pm
Oh my gosh I think that is disgusting that they are asking such personal information. I would be absolutely beyond horrified if somebody actually looked at my credit card and my checking to see where every penny I spent in it. Yes some things I buy I would never want anyone in the entire world to know about. I think that is just beyond. I'm really sorry if he went through that. It's hard for me to believe that any respectable Rav what asked me that nosy. To me it's almost as much as walking into someone's bedroom and snooping around. Some things are just meant to be private even if you are asking for financial help. And I totally agree that there's people that can be suffering a lot more than just get money under the table.
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amother
Ruby


 

Post Sat, May 14 2022, 10:48 pm
I heard a fascinating podcast by a principal who was explaining his policies on tuition collection.

He said that 10% of parents are enthusiastic. They pay full tuition happily and donate more on top of it.

80% of parents are reasonable. Some pay full, some pay part, but they all try to make a fair commitment and stick to it.

Then there are 10% of parents who will lie, cheat, and otherwise do anything to avoid paying tuition. They will ask for absurd tuition reductions and not pay that amount either.

He said that most schools penalize everyone because of that last 10%. They treat everyone like a potential cheater and liar and don't trust them to keep their word. They are sure that every parent is trying to weasel their way out of paying tuition. They demand personal financial documents, make you feel like a thief if you ask for a scholarship, and question every decision you make.

This principal's policy is that he lets Hashem take care of that category. He'd rather have a good relationship with most of the parents, because they have many years where they need to be partners. Treating everyone with suspicion will give that 80% negative feelings, and not encourage them to give more even when they might later be able to.

He does sometimes ask the "80%" parents to pay more, but it is in the context of a respectful discussion and he doesn't force the issue if they say they really can't.

The liars and cheaters will just figure out a better way to lie if you try to outsmart them in their own business. It's not worth wasting all of your time on them. Hashem will give them justice.

This principal said that an easy way to figure out who's who is that when someone asks for a tuition reduction, he asks their approximate income and how much they are hoping to pay. The way they answer that question makes it clear who is just trying to be a freeloader and who is honestly in need and trying to do their best.

I wish more schools would adopt that policy.
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amother
Anemone


 

Post Sat, May 14 2022, 10:57 pm
amother [ Ruby ] wrote:
I heard a fascinating podcast by a principal who was explaining his policies on tuition collection.

He said that 10% of parents are enthusiastic. They pay full tuition happily and donate more on top of it.

80% of parents are reasonable. Some pay full, some pay part, but they all try to make a fair commitment and stick to it.

Then there are 10% of parents who will lie, cheat, and otherwise do anything to avoid paying tuition. They will ask for absurd tuition reductions and not pay that amount either.

He said that most schools penalize everyone because of that last 10%. They treat everyone like a potential cheater and liar and don't trust them to keep their word. They are sure that every parent is trying to weasel their way out of paying tuition.

His policy is that he lets Hashem take care of that category. He'd rather have a good relationship with most of the parents, because they have many years where they need to be partners. Treating everyone with suspicion will give that 80% negative feelings, and not encourage them to give more even when they might later be able to.

He does sometimes ask the "80%" parents to pay more, but it is in the context of a respectful discussion and he doesn't force the issue if they say they really can't.

The liars and cheaters will just figure out a better way to lie if you try to outsmart them in their own business. It's not worth wasting all of your time on them. Hashem will give them justice.

This principal said that an easy way to figure out who's who is that when someone asks for a tuition reduction, he asks their approximate income and how much they are hoping to pay. The way they answer that question makes it clear who is just trying to be a freeloader and who is honestly in need and trying to do their best.

I wish more schools would adopt that policy.


He may be right, but the principal should not be involved in collecting tuition. You need a firewall between the educational and financial areas, so that money doesn't impact how a child is treated in school. Even the best teachers can develop a subconscious bias. Obviously, some families are richer than others, and some have their last name on the school building, but it's important for the classroom to be as free of financial considerations as possible.
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amother
Crimson


 

Post Sat, May 14 2022, 10:57 pm
It's annoying but most yeshivot ask for that. If you need the financial aid, give them the statements, maybe the 1st page only. It's an invasion of privacy but sometimes it's the only way to afford school.
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amother
Ruby


 

Post Sat, May 14 2022, 11:23 pm
amother [ Anemone ] wrote:
He may be right, but the principal should not be involved in collecting tuition. You need a firewall between the educational and financial areas, so that money doesn't impact how a child is treated in school. Even the best teachers can develop a subconscious bias. Obviously, some families are richer than others, and some have their last name on the school building, but it's important for the classroom to be as free of financial considerations as possible.

Agreed, in an ideal world there is an impartial tuition committee. In the case of the principal I referenced above, this was a small OOT school with insufficient manpower to follow such ideals.

But either way, it makes no difference WHO implements such policies, just that there is such a policy of trusting parents by default.
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amother
Brunette


 

Post Sun, May 15 2022, 3:10 am
Give in the statements but cross of anything personal/private and just leave the amount on the side.
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amother
Almond


 

Post Sun, May 15 2022, 3:25 am
It's mortifying but they ask because you are asking for them to give you a discount. If you don't want the discount then they won't know anything about your finances.

Running a school is expensive!!! School boards try many different ways of fundraising but at the end of the day, without all the students paying as much as possible, there just is no school.
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amother
Amaryllis


 

Post Sun, May 15 2022, 8:38 am
I think it's wrong of the school ask for bank/credit card statements, but I'm not sure that you have a choice if you need the finacial aid.

I am just always so bothered by the utter hypocrisy of the schools. When I ask for a tuition discount, they do not believe me, they ask for supporting documents. But THEY can send a tuition bill with ZERO supporting documents, and we should trust that that is really the amount that they need. Why don't the schools have any accountability to the parents, who are really just paying customers and deserve transparancy?

My DH works in a service field. When he quotes a price to a customer, they often ask the breakdown and how he got to that amount. But the schools don't do that. They can just put whatever crazy number they want on the tuition contract, with no explanation or breakdown. I'm not saying that they should list every teacher's individual salary, but just a general overview of how they came up with that amount.
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amother
OP


 

Post Sun, May 15 2022, 8:47 am
amother [ Ruby ] wrote:
I heard a fascinating podcast by a principal who was explaining his policies on tuition collection.

He said that 10% of parents are enthusiastic. They pay full tuition happily and donate more on top of it.

80% of parents are reasonable. Some pay full, some pay part, but they all try to make a fair commitment and stick to it.

Then there are 10% of parents who will lie, cheat, and otherwise do anything to avoid paying tuition. They will ask for absurd tuition reductions and not pay that amount either.

He said that most schools penalize everyone because of that last 10%. They treat everyone like a potential cheater and liar and don't trust them to keep their word. They are sure that every parent is trying to weasel their way out of paying tuition. They demand personal financial documents, make you feel like a thief if you ask for a scholarship, and question every decision you make.

This principal's policy is that he lets Hashem take care of that category. He'd rather have a good relationship with most of the parents, because they have many years where they need to be partners. Treating everyone with suspicion will give that 80% negative feelings, and not encourage them to give more even when they might later be able to.

He does sometimes ask the "80%" parents to pay more, but it is in the context of a respectful discussion and he doesn't force the issue if they say they really can't.

The liars and cheaters will just figure out a better way to lie if you try to outsmart them in their own business. It's not worth wasting all of your time on them. Hashem will give them justice.

This principal said that an easy way to figure out who's who is that when someone asks for a tuition reduction, he asks their approximate income and how much they are hoping to pay. The way they answer that question makes it clear who is just trying to be a freeloader and who is honestly in need and trying to do their best.

I wish more schools would adopt that policy.



Fair enough, but for once I'd like schools to explain and justify (especially schools that charge 25k+ in tuition) why it's so expensive.

It's very easy for them to talk about the parent body and who they think is being honest. But full stop- can we for ONCE find out what the principal is making? How many relatives are hired? Is the school genuinely being run in a way where they are trying to mitigate expenses or are they hiring people for unnecessary positions because money is free?
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amother
Ruby


 

Post Sun, May 15 2022, 9:43 am
amother [ OP ] wrote:
Fair enough, but for once I'd like schools to explain and justify (especially schools that charge 25k+ in tuition) why it's so expensive.

It's very easy for them to talk about the parent body and who they think is being honest. But full stop- can we for ONCE find out what the principal is making? How many relatives are hired? Is the school genuinely being run in a way where they are trying to mitigate expenses or are they hiring people for unnecessary positions because money is free?

Most schools waste significant amounts of money.

One very large and well-regarded school sent out a fundraising pamphlet many years ago. In it they announced that they had hired a financial auditor, and he helped them save a million dollars a year in costs!

On one hand, wow! Amazing! They're being so responsible with the money they are raising!

OTOH I was crying inside for all of the parents who struggled, fed their kids tuna fish for Shabbos, sent their kids to school with old and torn backpacks, and cried themselves to sleep because the school was wasting A MILLION. DOLLARS. EVERY. YEAR.
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amother
Anemone


 

Post Sun, May 15 2022, 9:53 am
Of course you should have access to the school budget. You're the customer.

Not for profit institutions have to file a form 990 with the IRS. It's public, so you can see it. Look up the school on Guidestar or Charity Navigator.(Some schools will avoid this by registering not as a school but as a house of worship. That doesn't necessarily mean they are hiding anything, but it could be a red flag.)

You'll be able to see a rough outline of the school's spending. You won't see individual employee salaries. Bear in mind that the very program/employee/ facility you think is a total waste of money is exactly what some other parent considers the greatest thing since sliced bread. School boards juggle competing values and can't make everyone happy all the time. But if they have integrity, they're not wasting your money. And if they don't have integrity, maybe you shouldn't be entrusting them with the chinuch of your children.
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amother
Ruby


 

Post Sun, May 15 2022, 10:06 am
amother [ Anemone ] wrote:
Of course you should have access to the school budget. You're the customer.

Not for profit institutions have to file a form 990 with the IRS. It's public, so you can see it. Look up the school on Guidestar or Charity Navigator.(Some schools will avoid this by registering not as a school but as a house of worship. That doesn't necessarily mean they are hiding anything, but it could be a red flag.)

You'll be able to see a rough outline of the school's spending. You won't see individual employee salaries. Bear in mind that the very program/employee/ facility you think is a total waste of money is exactly what some other parent considers the greatest thing since sliced bread. School boards juggle competing values and can't make everyone happy all the time. But if they have integrity, they're not wasting your money. And if they don't have integrity, maybe you shouldn't be entrusting them with the chinuch of your children.

It's not about integrity. It's about a feeling of responsibility that would lead schools to think twice before spending a dollar or asking parents for a dollar. That same feeling they expect parents to have before they buy their kids pizza on Rosh Chodesh because "the money could be used to pay tuition."

Very few schools have much information on their 990. The ones that do bring up more questions than answers. One large school that I looked at (years ago) had a very clear profit of several million dollars a year on their 990. But IRL they are well-known for paying their teachers many months late.
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