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Some reasons why I'm not sending to public school
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amother




Puce
 

Post Mon, May 23 2022, 4:19 am
amother [ Lightpink ] wrote:
My mother went to public school in the 1950s/60s. Her family was a handful of Orthodox families in a very small town with not enough for a day school. It had an Orthodox shul and mikvah and that was about it. The boys from the more frum families stayed till they were bar mitzvah then went away to yeshiva. The girls continued thru high school. My mother had 1 frum friend her age, the rest were non Jewish. I won't say the name of the town because it would be very identifying. There is almost no Jewish presence there anymore as eventually by the late 80s everyone had left. But let me say, the children and grandchildren as well as great grandchildren of those public school kids are living very frum lives in places such as Lakewood and even Bnai Brak as well as plenty of JPF. There are several well known peope who came from there that you'd probably be surprised to hear went to that public school.
I'm not saying this is a realistic model for nowadays. Just saying that yes, it did happen and not so long ago, either.

Both of my grandparents were born in the early 1900's (1910 to 1920) and they and their siblings went to public school for obvious reasons. They b'h remained frum, but most of their classmates didn't.

My in laws went to public school in the 1930's and 1940's. My father in law a'h was from Philadelphia - I'm naming the city - and he said that from all the kids he grew up with, only a handful of them remained frum. All came from frum homes, many of the parents were even moser nefesh for Shabbos. I don't have the actual numbers, but this information is well known and a little historical research should be able to give you some real data.

There were numerous shuls - active shuls, with minyanim, shiurim, etc. all over the US in the late 1800's, especially in New York. Very few of these families remained frum. Their children did not get a Jewish education, or at most a lukewarm one, and that was the end of the line.
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amother




Lawngreen
 

Post Mon, May 23 2022, 4:24 am
Because we have options B”H and want to do all we can to surround our children with kedusha as much as possible and pass on our mesora to our precious kinderlach the guarantors of our and Hashem’s holy Torah.
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amother




Lightpink
 

Post Mon, May 23 2022, 4:35 am
amother [ Puce ] wrote:
Both of my grandparents were born in the early 1900's (1910 to 1920) and they and their siblings went to public school for obvious reasons. They b'h remained frum, but most of their classmates didn't.

My in laws went to public school in the 1930's and 1940's. My father in law a'h was from Philadelphia - I'm naming the city - and he said that from all the kids he grew up with, only a handful of them remained frum. All came from frum homes, many of the parents were even moser nefesh for Shabbos. I don't have the actual numbers, but this information is well known and a little historical research should be able to give you some real data.

There were numerous shuls - active shuls, with minyanim, shiurim, etc. all over the US in the late 1800's, especially in New York. Very few of these families remained frum. Their children did not get a Jewish education, or at most a lukewarm one, and that was the end of the line.

I'm aware of that. I read the book by Hindy Krohn (I assume you are from one of the families she mentions in The Way it Was.) I'm just telling you, it did happen where people went to public school and stayed frum and not so long ago. In my mother's case, they were fortunate to have a couple of very influential rabbis (the rabbis never stayed more than a few years, it was always young rabbis who were just starting out in their rabbinical career) who were extremely influential. One of which is a rav who went to accomplish amazing things and who I still see quoted as people's mentors in Mishpacha and other places, from his later years. He cut his teeth in my mother's town.)
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amother




Puce
 

Post Mon, May 23 2022, 4:56 am
amother [ Lightpink ] wrote:
I'm aware of that. I read the book by Hindy Krohn (I assume you are from one of the families she mentions in The Way it Was.) I'm just telling you, it did happen where people went to public school and stayed frum and not so long ago. In my mother's case, they were fortunate to have a couple of very influential rabbis (the rabbis never stayed more than a few years, it was always young rabbis who were just starting out in their rabbinical career) who were extremely influential. One of which is a rav who went to accomplish amazing things and who I still see quoted as people's mentors in Mishpacha and other places, from his later years. He cut his teeth in my mother's town.)

Of course it happened. My grandparents, my in laws, your mother... all went to public school and stayed frum. But what were the odds? Are we all fond of playing Russian Roulette with our children's future?

Both my grandfather and my father in law a'h were PASSIONATE on the subject of frum schools. My grandfather at one point had a successful business and his pet project - his pet tzedakah if you will - was sponsoring tuition for boys who's parents couldn't afford (nowadays tomchei shabbos and hatzalah seem - at least to me - to be the biggest priority tzedakah-wise in our community, for them it was sponsoring tuition). They scrimped and they saved to afford their own children's tuition and they felt this is was the biggest priority for them. They themselves were products of public school, and if I may say so, both were shining examples of what a Jew should be, but they did not see public school as even an OPTION for their own children. That should tell you something about their experience.
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amother




Eggplant
 

Post Mon, May 23 2022, 4:59 am
amother [ Lightpink ] wrote:
I'm aware of that. I read the book by Hindy Krohn (I assume you are from one of the families she mentions in The Way it Was.) I'm just telling you, it did happen where people went to public school and stayed frum and not so long ago. In my mother's case, they were fortunate to have a couple of very influential rabbis (the rabbis never stayed more than a few years, it was always young rabbis who were just starting out in their rabbinical career) who were extremely influential. One of which is a rav who went to accomplish amazing things and who I still see quoted as people's mentors in Mishpacha and other places, from his later years. He cut his teeth in my mother's town.)

I think we are related! Unless there is more than one town like this.
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amother




Lightpink
 

Post Mon, May 23 2022, 5:19 am
amother [ Eggplant ] wrote:
I think we are related! Unless there is more than one town like this.

Possibly. Either way. Lol.
No, I don't advocate for people to send to public school. Certainly my mother was very happy and thankful to send her children to religious schools. I was just correcting a point of historical accuracy.
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amother




Catmint
 

Post Mon, May 23 2022, 5:26 am
imasinger wrote:
I had to put DS in public preschool to get services, and switched him over for kindergarten.

Some of the things that were challenging were on GlUE's list. Others included:

Being uncomfortable in yarmulke and tzitzis, since nobody else had them

Most birthday parties and other social events were on Shabbos.

Class parties and the like always involved bringing our own food, and sometimes, the nonkosher alternative looked tastier.

Halloween, "non-denominational" Xmas activities, valentines, etc.

Kids talking about things we don't do.

It was totally worth it to me to pull DS out daily in kindergarten to get him services during lunchtimes, despite the logistical and financial challenges that entailed.


But don't the majority of these fall away if more of us send to public schools? If many in our community send to public schools, then there would be more in yarmulkes and tzitzis, social events on other days of the week, kosher food in class parties, etc?
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amother




Skyblue
 

Post Mon, May 23 2022, 5:33 am
amother [ Razzmatazz ] wrote:
What a stupid comment. My mother and all her cohorts went to public school. They are all still frum and SS.
I am not advocating public school. I was very privilege to go to day school, as are my children, but you comment is made up. Feel free to show me a pew report and prove me wrong.


Her post isn't stupid nor is it made up. (Though you are quite rude and ignorant in jewish history of that era.)
A tiny tiny percentage of American jews stayed frum/shomer shabbos. Most assimilated.
She's talking about the early 1900's, those people aren't alive anymore. If your mom went to school in the early 1900's, it's not really possible that she and all her cohorts are still alive.
She's not talking about the war/post war era. (Though a large percentage of Jews assimilated then as well.)
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amother




Skyblue
 

Post Mon, May 23 2022, 5:36 am
amother [ Lightpink ] wrote:
My mother went to public school in the 1950s/60s. Her family was a handful of Orthodox families in a very small town with not enough for a day school. It had an Orthodox shul and mikvah and that was about it. The boys from the more frum families stayed till they were bar mitzvah then went away to yeshiva. The girls continued thru high school. My mother had 1 frum friend her age, the rest were non Jewish. I won't say the name of the town because it would be very identifying. There is almost no Jewish presence there anymore as eventually by the late 80s everyone had left. But let me say, the children and grandchildren as well as great grandchildren of those public school kids are living very frum lives in places such as Lakewood and even Bnai Brak as well as plenty of JPF. There are several well known peope who came from there that you'd probably be surprised to hear went to that public school.
I'm not saying this is a realistic model for nowadays. Just saying that yes, it did happen and not so long ago, either.


The 1950's/60's are not the early 1900's what BestBubby mentioned. There was way way more assimilation in the late 1800's/early 1900's. Most jews from that era did not stay frum. As the years went by, there's less and less assimilation bh.
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amother




Lightblue
 

Post Mon, May 23 2022, 5:41 am
Avoid public school if you possibly can.

If I convince even one person let it be a Tikkun for the tremendous mistake we made denying our kids a proper Jewish education Sad.
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amother




Skyblue
 

Post Mon, May 23 2022, 5:47 am
amother [ Catmint ] wrote:
But don't the majority of these fall away if more of us send to public schools? If many in our community send to public schools, then there would be more in yarmulkes and tzitzis, social events on other days of the week, kosher food in class parties, etc?


I don't think there'd ever be a proper jewish curriculum in public school, no matter how many jewish children there are in public school. They still won't get a jewish education, davening, living the yomim tovim, stories of tzaddikim....
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amother




Skyblue
 

Post Mon, May 23 2022, 5:51 am
amother [ Puce ] wrote:
Both of my grandparents were born in the early 1900's (1910 to 1920) and they and their siblings went to public school for obvious reasons. They b'h remained frum, but most of their classmates didn't.

My in laws went to public school in the 1930's and 1940's. My father in law a'h was from Philadelphia - I'm naming the city - and he said that from all the kids he grew up with, only a handful of them remained frum. All came from frum homes, many of the parents were even moser nefesh for Shabbos. I don't have the actual numbers, but this information is well known and a little historical research should be able to give you some real data.

There were numerous shuls - active shuls, with minyanim, shiurim, etc. all over the US in the late 1800's, especially in New York. Very few of these families remained frum. Their children did not get a Jewish education, or at most a lukewarm one, and that was the end of the line.


My mother's father also grew up in Philadelphia. They're 3 siblings. He's the only one that's frum today. He wasn't always frum. He married my grandmother that was not frum at the time either, and they were baal teshuva together. They raised their family in a frum community and bh were zocha to a beautiful frum family. My grandparents are the only one's in their family that are frum. Though some of their young nieces & nephews were chozer b'teshuva.
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amother




Puce
 

Post Mon, May 23 2022, 5:55 am
amother [ Skyblue ] wrote:
My mother's father also grew up in Philadelphia. They're 3 siblings. He's the only one that's frum today. He wasn't always frum. He married my grandmother that was not frum at the time either, and they were baal teshuva together. They raised their family in a frum community and bh were zocha to a beautiful frum family. My grandparents are the only one's in their family that are frum. Though some of their young nieces & nephews were chozer b'teshuva.

My father in law was the only child that remained frum (my husband's grandparents were very frum). My husband has no Jewish second cousins from that side of the family.
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amother




Skyblue
 

Post Mon, May 23 2022, 6:01 am
amother [ Puce ] wrote:
My father in law was the only child that remained frum (my husband's grandparents were very frum). My husband has no Jewish second cousins from that side of the family.

Wow, it's really sad to think how many generations of jews were basically lost.
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amother




Snowflake
 

Post Mon, May 23 2022, 6:05 am
GLUE wrote:
In public School would he learn that A is for Aficomen and B for Bisomin

Would his teacher in public school talk about how Hashem tells the butterflies born in the spring to fly north and the ones born in the fall to fly south?


I don't think either of these are examples of good chinuch. I agree with the basic premise of the OP, though.
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amother




Razzmatazz
 

Post Mon, May 23 2022, 6:11 am
If you know anything about history, the immigrants of the turn of the last century were predominantly Russian/Belarus… They were predominantly Bolshevik in nature and semi communists in ideology. The young immigrants themselves were not religious and did not hold onto traditions. It is not that their children went to public school and that they did not carry on with Torah observation. Their parents often threw it away for them.

You are correct, my mother grew up in the 1950’s in Washington Heights where many of the girls at least did not go to Bruers. Amazing they are still frum.

The article put out by Brandis refers to students from the 80’s and 90’s so if you are going to argue that you are referring to 1900, you most certainly cannot use that article-which doesn’t say anything anyway, to prove any point.
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PinkFridge




 
 
 
 

Post Mon, May 23 2022, 7:11 am
#BestBubby wrote:
Excellent post!

In early 1900s, frum parents sent kids to public school and Talmud Torah in afternoon.

Most of the kids became mechallel shobbos, r"l.

Yeshivas and BYs are essential.


They simply didn't have options 100+ years ago.
The big question is did they see their parents keep Shabbos. I'll glad my ancestors made the right decisions but I can't fault others. It was brutal.

So kids saw their fathers davening in shul Shabbos morning and go out to work later. That created a rifyon.

And there were kids who had no supervision on Shabbos with parents at work and - among other things - were prey to missionaries and others who weren't going to be mechazek any resolve they had.

You can be sure that the very parents who didn't get the advantages of a yeshiva education sent their children to the mosdos that cropped up a generation later.
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PinkFridge




 
 
 
 

Post Mon, May 23 2022, 7:13 am
#BestBubby wrote:
Razamataz, here is excerpt on Brandeis University Study on how Day School Graduates
maintain Orthodox Observance, while those who did not go to religious schools rapidly
assimilate:


according to the 2006-2007 Brandeis University study, “The Impact of Day School: A Comparative Analysis of Jewish College Students.” That report surveyed 3300 Jewish college students who are alumni of day schools and found that day school students enter college more likely to be involved in Jewish campus life than those who did not. They are more likely to enroll in Jewish classes, join Jewish clubs on campus and maintain holiday observance in the face of intense social pressure. They also express a stronger sense of civic responsibility, a greater commitment to the Jewish community, and become far more likely to pursue Jewish communal careers.


I agree that public school over the last few generations has been devastating. But the early 1900s were different. Even into I'd say, the 1930s.
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#BestBubby




 
 
 
 

Post Mon, May 23 2022, 10:16 am
amother [ Lightyellow ] wrote:
Could you rephrase that?

BestBubby I really don't agree with you. My mother etc... I'd love to see a pew report proving what you're saying.


Thank you. Smile
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amother




Hydrangea
 

Post Mon, May 23 2022, 10:23 am
The issue of Jews becoming non-frum before WW II is a red herring. Most of the Jews who immigrated in that period were not particularly religious and only practiced in the old country because to do otherwise was unthinkable - let's call them Orthoprax.

They didn't particularly care whether their children were frum and most of them were at best Conservative in terms of how they practiced Judaism. They might have kept kosher but so long as a canned food didn't contain an obviously treif ingredient they were fine with it. For the most part they didn't wear wigs - they wore short sleeves and many ate in non-kosher restaurants but had fish or salad.

They generally did identify with Judaism as their culture and birth right but did not interpret it in a frum manner.
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