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Tuition raised 2k per child to cover teacher’s bloated salar
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amother




Wallflower
 

Post Wed, May 25 2022, 6:49 am
amother [ Pistachio ] wrote:
In most jobs people aren't just chatting with coworkers half the day. Likewise Many people can assume its easier singing to 2nd graders than dealing with irate bosses and customers.


And to assume that it's easier to deal with 2nd graders than it is to deal with difficult patients and/or difficult families.
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amother




Lavender
 

Post Wed, May 25 2022, 6:51 am
I really really sympathize with anyone who is struggling to pay tuition and dealing with tuition increases. My husband and I pay full tuition for all of all children and we do it even though it means going without a lot of things we would rather spend the money on (cleaning help, takeout, getaways, new wig, camp, home renovations).
However, this is the reality, whether you like it or not:
You can either pay low/reasonable/somewhat affordable tuition
OR
You can have good teachers who are professional, trained, and dedicated to doing their best for your children.
In today's world, you simply cannot have both. The days of sweet idealistic post seminary girls dedicating their lives to chinuch are OVER.
Keeping tuitions down and salaries low will ensure that schools are staffed with people who do the job because they qualify for nothing else, who occasionally are qualified but usually aren't, who will leave at the drop of a hat if something better comes along.
So choose. And make your peace with the choice you and others have made.
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amother




Wallflower
 

Post Wed, May 25 2022, 6:56 am
amother [ Orchid ] wrote:
Just another point to ponder, for all those saying teaching is only few hours, realize that 8 hours of chatting with coworkers in office/doing Some computer work isn't half the job of enthusiastically talking and teaching 2nd graders for 3 hours straight. That's besides the after hours prep time.


I really don't understand why teachers believe they're the only ones who work after hours. FYI, I would estimate that in our current times, at least 50% of the jobs have you working after hours.

All kinds of workers have responsibilities that must be met. They outcome of those responsibilities rests on them. Often it is the case that the responsibility must be met by a certain deadline in order for others to be able to do their work. These workers will work overtime and evening hours to get that done.

A point for you to ponder. If teachers want to make their case to the parents, they need to use arguments and points that resonate. In using points that suggest that teachers are living in the dark about others, it doesn't go over well.
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amother




NeonGreen
 

Post Wed, May 25 2022, 6:58 am
amother [ Lavender ] wrote:
I really really sympathize with anyone who is struggling to pay tuition and dealing with tuition increases. My husband and I pay full tuition for all of all children and we do it even though it means going without a lot of things we would rather spend the money on (cleaning help, takeout, getaways, new wig, camp, home renovations).
However, this is the reality, whether you like it or not:
You can either pay low/reasonable/somewhat affordable tuition
OR
You can have good teachers who are professional, trained, and dedicated to doing their best for your children.
In today's world, you simply cannot have both. The days of sweet idealistic post seminary girls dedicating their lives to chinuch are OVER.
Keeping tuitions down and salaries low will ensure that schools are staffed with people who do the job because they qualify for nothing else, who occasionally are qualified but usually aren't, who will leave at the drop of a hat if something better comes along.
So choose. And make your peace with the choice you and others have made.


What if it is not a choice? What if I do without all the things that you did without, and STILL cannot afford full tuition? Many, many parents are in that position.
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amother




Wallflower
 

Post Wed, May 25 2022, 7:00 am
amother [ Lavender ] wrote:
I really really sympathize with anyone who is struggling to pay tuition and dealing with tuition increases. My husband and I pay full tuition for all of all children and we do it even though it means going without a lot of things we would rather spend the money on (cleaning help, takeout, getaways, new wig, camp, home renovations).
However, this is the reality, whether you like it or not:
You can either pay low/reasonable/somewhat affordable tuition
OR
You can have good teachers who are professional, trained, and dedicated to doing their best for your children.
In today's world, you simply cannot have both. The days of sweet idealistic post seminary girls dedicating their lives to chinuch are OVER.
Keeping tuitions down and salaries low will ensure that schools are staffed with people who do the job because they qualify for nothing else, who occasionally are qualified but usually aren't, who will leave at the drop of a hat if something better comes along.
So choose. And make your peace with the choice you and others have made.


Such posts suggest that there is little understanding of the reality others live with.

The parent's first need to make a different choice. They need to choose between food on the table and tuition. Only once they've made that choice, can they address the choice that you're suggesting.
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amother




Clear
 

Post Wed, May 25 2022, 7:01 am
amother [ Lavender ] wrote:
I really really sympathize with anyone who is struggling to pay tuition and dealing with tuition increases. My husband and I pay full tuition for all of all children and we do it even though it means going without a lot of things we would rather spend the money on (cleaning help, takeout, getaways, new wig, camp, home renovations).
However, this is the reality, whether you like it or not:
You can either pay low/reasonable/somewhat affordable tuition
OR
You can have good teachers who are professional, trained, and dedicated to doing their best for your children.
In today's world, you simply cannot have both. The days of sweet idealistic post seminary girls dedicating their lives to chinuch are OVER.
Keeping tuitions down and salaries low will ensure that schools are staffed with people who do the job because they qualify for nothing else, who occasionally are qualified but usually aren't, who will leave at the drop of a hat if something better comes along.
So choose. And make your peace with the choice you and others have made.


What about all the people who are paying the tuition that the school allows them to pay and then have to choose between chicken on the bone for supper or a winter coat for their child.
Not takeout. Not new shaitels or vacations.
Chicken for supper or a ($30) winter coat for a child.
A brick of American cheese or a bottle of detergent.
A bag of potatoes or a box of tampons

Because so many of us are going into this place. Our health insurance, utilities and gas prices to get to work are rising, tuition is rising. Our salary isn't. We aren't eligible for Medicaid or WIC or food stamps.
And the money left means we're making some really tough choices between which necessity we should spend on.

And we get lectured that we don't appreciate our children's education and teachers enough.
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amother




Lavender
 

Post Wed, May 25 2022, 7:05 am
amother [ Clear ] wrote:
What about all the people who are paying the tuition that the school allows them to pay and then have to choose between chicken on the bone for supper or a winter coat for their child.
Not takeout. Not new shaitels or vacations.
Chicken for supper or a ($30) winter coat for a child.
A brick of American cheese or a bottle of detergent.
A bag of potatoes or a box of tampons

Because so many of us are going into this place. Our health insurance, utilities and gas prices to get to work are rising, tuition is rising. Our salary isn't. We aren't eligible for Medicaid or WIC or food stamps.
And the money left means we're making some really tough choices between which necessity we should spend on.

And we get lectured that we don't appreciate our children's education and teachers enough.


I get that! I really do! I've been in that place!
But it's simply a reality -- this isn't a lecture, oh, you don't appreciate teachers enough blah blah blah. It's simply a fact of the matter -- if we can't pay teachers adequately enough that good ones don't flee the field, we won't have good teachers. So what is an alternative suggestion? Other than raising tuition.
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amother




Wallflower
 

Post Wed, May 25 2022, 7:10 am
amother [ Lavender ] wrote:
I get that! I really do! I've been in that place!
But it's simply a reality -- this isn't a lecture, oh, you don't appreciate teachers enough blah blah blah. It's simply a fact of the matter -- if we can't pay teachers adequately enough that good ones don't flee the field, we won't have good teachers. So what is an alternative suggestion? Other than raising tuition.


1. Fundraise. We seem to be able to collect vast sums for shuls and mikvahs and other organizations.

2. Offer benefits similar to other businesses.

3. Reduce other expenses. Open the books to let the parents decide what they'd be ok with doing away with.

4. If you have no other option but to raise tuition - increase it marginally so there's a possibility for households to absorb it.
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amother




Gardenia
 

Post Wed, May 25 2022, 7:13 am
We have schools for all types. I wish there was a school who’s criteria was parents who view themselves as partners with the teachers and not adversaries.
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amother




Wallflower
 

Post Wed, May 25 2022, 7:14 am
amother [ Gardenia ] wrote:
We have schools for all types. I wish there was a school who’s criteria was parents who view themselves as partners with the teachers and not adversaries.


I view teachers a partners, but still don't have money for any tuition increases. What school would you place me in based on that criteria?
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amother




Pistachio
 

Post Wed, May 25 2022, 7:16 am
amother [ Gardenia ] wrote:
We have schools for all types. I wish there was a school who’s criteria was parents who view themselves as partners with the teachers and not adversaries.


Why is it either or? Why am I an adversary because I can't afford to pay them the salary they want?
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amother




Pistachio
 

Post Wed, May 25 2022, 7:19 am
amother [ Wallflower ] wrote:
1. Fundraise. We seem to be able to collect vast sums for shuls and mikvahs and other organizations.

2. Offer benefits similar to other businesses.

3. Reduce other expenses. Open the books to let the parents decide what they'd be ok with doing away with.

4. If you have no other option but to raise tuition - increase it marginally so there's a possibility for households to absorb it.


The school my kids go to have constant fundraisers. They had a campaign and raised 2.5 million in a few days. Where is all the money going? Nobody knows where yeshiva money goes. They collect and collect and we have no clue. Maybe if they really showed us the expenses people wouldn't be so resentful of the constant collecting and tuition raising that keeps going on. I do believe teachers are the last to see any of the money.
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amother




Clear
 

Post Wed, May 25 2022, 7:19 am
amother [ Wallflower ] wrote:
1. Fundraise. We seem to be able to collect vast sums for shuls and mikvahs and other organizations.

2. Offer benefits similar to other businesses.

3. Reduce other expenses. Open the books to let the parents decide what they'd be ok with doing away with.

4. If you have no other option but to raise tuition - increase it marginally so there's a possibility for households to absorb it.


Option #5 which seems to not happen in Lakewood and other places.
When parents apply for tuition reductions, ask for the full picture.
What programs are you on? How much each?
What support do you get? What gifts?

I have 5 children in school, and a combined income of 90k. The only program we're eligible for is the kids Jersey Care.
My neighbor has the same 5 kids in school, a combined income of 35k (playgroup Morah, BMG). They also get HUD, HEAP, Jersey Care for adults also, food stamps, and CHS (for daycamp). And a huge tax refund (15k we get 3k).
But they get huge tuition reductions because they're only making 35k and we don't because we're making 90k.

I know all this because she shares it all with me.
But if the school would demand that she shared that she's getting $1500 a month from HUD, $1000 a month from food stamps, Jersey Care, etc, they will have a better picture of what parents can and can't afford to pay.
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amother




Bergamot
 

Post Wed, May 25 2022, 7:19 am
Did I miss where the bloated salary amount was posted? I'm very curious. I'm also not believing for one second that all of that tuition increase is going into teachers' pockets. More likely most of this money is being used for general overhead costs which are going up.

I understand tuition raises are difficult - for some very, very difficult - but don't understand why this is an indictment on teachers.
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amother




Bone
 

Post Wed, May 25 2022, 7:23 am
amother [ Clear ] wrote:
Option #5 which seems to not happen in Lakewood and other places.
When parents apply for tuition reductions, ask for the full picture.
What programs are you on? How much each?
What support do you get? What gifts?

I have 5 children in school, and a combined income of 90k. The only program we're eligible for is the kids Jersey Care.
My neighbor has the same 5 kids in school, a combined income of 35k (playgroup Morah, BMG). They also get HUD, HEAP, Jersey Care for adults also, food stamps, and CHS (for daycamp). And a huge tax refund (15k we get 3k).
But they get huge tuition reductions because they're only making 35k and we don't because we're making 90k.

I know all this because she shares it all with me.
But if the school would demand that she shared that she's getting $1500 a month from HUD, $1000 a month from food stamps, Jersey Care, etc, they will have a better picture of what parents can and can't afford to pay.


So now we are using government programs to pay private school? That’s not how this works.
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amother




Peach
 

Post Wed, May 25 2022, 7:25 am
I assume that the issue is a Lakewood issue since other locations have always had much higher tuition than Lakewood. This is not a *dig* at Lakewood but just trying to confirm exactly what people are discussing.

Based on posts in imamother I can't imagine how they staff teachers considering what seems to be the salary for relatively unskilled office workers. Also the hours worked by these women seem to be relatively easy in terms of being a frum housewife as the hours are shorter to accommodate being home when kids get home and there also seems to be days off that coincide with Jewish holidays.

Also - at least based on what these jobs are - they don't appear to be extremely high stress positions. With all due respect to office workers, for the most part you come in and do your duties and when you leave at the end of the day you don't think about it until the next day. I am NOT talking about those who are on executive levels who have managerial pressures or whatever but the kind of jobs that people talk about where someone with no experience gets paid $50,000 or so.

FWIW comparing NYC school teachers - is apples and oranges. Not only are starting salaries higher but there are significant benefits including retirement plans and health plans. Your pay increases with seniority and although you also need post graduate credits to make more money, these are fully paid for and you don't have to take them all at once. My mother was a public school teacher in NYC and she would take a course every semester or so and fit it in. And the public schools aren't the hell holes people make them out to be especially in elementary schools where even the children from rough neighborhoods are sweet. My mother taught in a poorer area for awhile and then with seniority was able to change schools to a more affluent school but she didn't have huge problems with her third graders in either school. It is middle school and high school where there are more likely to be behavioral issues but middle schoolers are a difficult age to teach anywhere. LOL
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amother




Clear
 

Post Wed, May 25 2022, 7:30 am
amother [ Bone ] wrote:
So now we are using government programs to pay private school? That’s not how this works.


No. We're understanding that a family making only 35k but don't have to medical insurance or expenses, have part of their heat covered, have 75% of their mortgage covered, have a huge portion of their grocery bill paid, and have their summer daycamp and childcare paid for may actually have the ability to pay more tuition than the family making 90k but paying all their mortgage, utilities, food, insurance, and daycamp and babysitting.
That's it.
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amother




Pistachio
 

Post Wed, May 25 2022, 7:35 am
amother [ Peach ] wrote:
I assume that the issue is a Lakewood issue since other locations have always had much higher tuition than Lakewood. This is not a *dig* at Lakewood but just trying to confirm exactly what people are discussing.

Based on posts in imamother I can't imagine how they staff teachers considering what seems to be the salary for relatively unskilled office workers. Also the hours worked by these women seem to be relatively easy in terms of being a frum housewife as the hours are shorter to accommodate being home when kids get home and there also seems to be days off that coincide with Jewish holidays.

Also - at least based on what these jobs are - they don't appear to be extremely high stress positions. With all due respect to office workers, for the most part you come in and do your duties and when you leave at the end of the day you don't think about it until the next day. I am NOT talking about those who are on executive levels who have managerial pressures or whatever but the kind of jobs that people talk about where someone with no experience gets paid $50,000 or so.

FWIW comparing NYC school teachers - is apples and oranges. Not only are starting salaries higher but there are significant benefits including retirement plans and health plans. Your pay increases with seniority and although you also need post graduate credits to make more money, these are fully paid for and you don't have to take them all at once. My mother was a public school teacher in NYC and she would take a course every semester or so and fit it in. And the public schools aren't the hell holes people make them out to be especially in elementary schools where even the children from rough neighborhoods are sweet. My mother taught in a poorer area for awhile and then with seniority was able to change schools to a more affluent school but she didn't have huge problems with her third graders in either school. It is middle school and high school where there are more likely to be behavioral issues but middle schoolers are a difficult age to teach anywhere. LOL


The administration when your mom taught in public school is very different than what it was today. Many schools are hell holes thanks to the principals and higher level administration. They make huge demands and leave no room for flexibility. I work till 3 o'clock on Friday and there is no room for discussion. But the Jewish teachers need a full week off to prepare for pesach. So let's not compare. And never mind the environment I am working in cannot be compared at all to working with other frum women.
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amother




Wallflower
 

Post Wed, May 25 2022, 7:43 am
amother [ Peach ] wrote:


Also - at least based on what these jobs are - they don't appear to be extremely high stress positions. With all due respect to office workers, for the most part you come in and do your duties and when you leave at the end of the day you don't think about it until the next day. I am NOT talking about those who are on executive levels who have managerial pressures or whatever but the kind of jobs that people talk about where someone with no experience gets paid $50,000 or so.

l


That's not accurate. Plenty of standard office workers who aren't on any executive level work off hours. And then there's also other fields, such as healthcare, social workers, who work off hours
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amother




Peach
 

Post Wed, May 25 2022, 7:52 am
amother [ Wallflower ] wrote:
That's not accurate. Plenty of standard office workers who aren't on any executive level work off hours. And then there's also other fields, such as healthcare, social workers, who work off hours


I was specifically referring to the type of beginner level office jobs that seem to be available in Lakewood for high starting salaries for women who are essentially high school graduates. At least based on people's job descriptions these jobs don't seem to demand one work 24/7 off the clock.

I am not discussing other poorly paid positions like social workers and not comparing it to RN's or others who generally work extremely hard for their salaries.

Most rational people will choose to work where they are paid as much as possible. It appears that in Lakewood salaries for many teachers were lower than they could easily get working at other jobs. Since cost of living has increased significantly those people who were willing to work at lower pay for whatever reason are now quitting teaching and being able to immediately get higher paying office jobs. So schools need teachers in the classroom and so they need to increase salaries so that people are willing to teach.

At any rate there is a saying in business - pay peanuts - get monkeys.
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