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-> In the News
exaustedmom
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 Wed, May 25 2022, 3:18 pm
| STMommy wrote: | | Exactly. Hence my (I guess rhetorical) question upthread. |
As other people noted, much mental illness goes untreated in this country. This monster had a million red flags yet was able to purchase a gun.
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Fox
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Wed, May 25 2022, 3:47 pm
| Alternative wrote: | So there are a number of violently mentally ill people. Probably more than in other countries.
Why do they have access to guns?
Why does everyone else have easy access to guns, considering there are so many violent unstable people in their midst who can seize those guns? |
First of all, it's tough to make comparisons with other countries simply because of the size of the U.S. and the diversity of the population. Getting along with your fellow countrymen is a lot harder in the U.S. than almost anywhere else. If your entire country is relatively homogeneous in terms of race, ethnicity, background, and values? Well, ich ken oich azoi!
You would expect to see huge disparities, for example, between the U.S. and European nations in which guns are all but outlawed for private citizens. But in fact, the U.S. has a total homide rate of approximately 6 per 100,000 residents while European nations are typically around 2 per 100,000.
Reasonable estimates are that there are 340 million people in the U.S. There are also approximately 393 million guns in private hands in the U.S. According to the CDC, there were 25,000 gun-related homicides in the U.S. in 2020.
So the notion of the U.S. as some sort of Wild West is complete nonsense. Europeans looking down their noses at the U.S. homicide rate based on the prevalence of guns are, no offense, idiots. Apparently, even with small populations, less diversity, and a lack of weaponry, they're only able to prevent 4 homicides per 100,000 people than in the U.S. Hardly bragging rights.
Now, obviously, any homicides by any means are too many. But the number of gun homicides compared to the number of guns out there suggests that, in general, Americans have remarkable trigger control.
_______________________________
With 393 million guns circulating, it's simply unrealistic to think that "gun control" is the solution. Most states have all kinds of laws disallowing people with documented serious mental illness from buying guns. But we see that enforcement is often cursory, and people frequently lie about their past when filling out paperwork. Hunter Biden, for instance. Are you sure you really want the government to have access to all data from your physician, therapist, psychiatrist, etc.?
Far more realistic is to identify the people who are most likely to erupt in violence and keep track of them -- as opposed to keeping track of the rest of us. As I mentioned, we almost always know who they are. However, that means a mental health infrastructure that is not used for political ends as well as honest oversight. And many of us are skeptical of that right now.
I don't think anyone disagrees with the basic premise that severely or violently mentally ill people shouldn't have access to firearms. I'm not so thrilled with their having access to automobiles or even traveling by subway, for that matter. But we cannot let perfect be the enemy of good. There is literally no way to round up 393 million guns, and even if we did, there is no political impetus to seal the southern border from gun smuggling by the cartels that control it. You can even print your own gun for a suprisingly low cost and minimal know-how.
Do we really want to "do something" about public homicides? I'm not certain that we do. How many of us want to tell a parent, "I'm sorry, but your son has a long-documented series of actions that suggest that he's dangerous to society. We must lock him up and/or monitor him carefully for the good of society"? How many of us want to risk making a mistake when making such evaluations?
That's the difference between "doing something" and "feeling good." What we need to do will be painful, unpleasant, and will definitely not leave us feeling good. It will leave us feeling awful. And that's what leadership means -- doing what is necessary even when it feels awful.
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GLUE
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Wed, May 25 2022, 4:01 pm
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Fox, you forgot to mention that most gun homicide death in this country is suicide. More people die from suicide by gun then any other gun violence.
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Fox
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Wed, May 25 2022, 4:02 pm
| GLUE wrote: | | Fox, you forgot to mention that most gun homicide death in this country is suicide. More people die from suicide by gun then any other gun violence. |
Yes, though suicides aren't counted as homicides.
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Alternative
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Wed, May 25 2022, 4:24 pm
| Fox wrote: |
Do we really want to "do something" about public homicides? I'm not certain that we do. How many of us want to tell a parent, "I'm sorry, but your son has a long-documented series of actions that suggest that he's dangerous to society. We must lock him up and/or monitor him carefully for the good of society"? How many of us want to risk making a mistake when making such evaluations?
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No one is going to lock up a teen just because he seems hypothetically dangerous. However, it would be wise to monitor him AND to make sure that he doesn't have access to guns. That he can't buy them or get them illegally, that his mom doesn't stash them under her bed, that his best friend doesn't own a collection.
There will always be mentally ill people, and a minority of them have violent tendencies. And as you say, we can't exactly lock up someone just because maybe he is a risk. But without guns, their capacity for violence is much smaller.
In Israel, there have been cases (recently too) of a mentally ill person who killed a family member (usually a parent). Just like here a grandmother was shot. But it stopped there. If these people had had firearms, they could have gone on a mass shooting too.
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GiGichai
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Wed, May 25 2022, 5:07 pm
| Fox wrote: | First of all, it's tough to make comparisons with other countries simply because of the size of the U.S. and the diversity of the population. Getting along with your fellow countrymen is a lot harder in the U.S. than almost anywhere else. If your entire country is relatively homogeneous in terms of race, ethnicity, background, and values? Well, ich ken oich azoi!
You would expect to see huge disparities, for example, between the U.S. and European nations in which guns are all but outlawed for private citizens. But in fact, the U.S. has a total homide rate of approximately 6 per 100,000 residents while European nations are typically around 2 per 100,000.
Reasonable estimates are that there are 340 million people in the U.S. There are also approximately 393 million guns in private hands in the U.S. According to the CDC, there were 25,000 gun-related homicides in the U.S. in 2020.
So the notion of the U.S. as some sort of Wild West is complete nonsense. Europeans looking down their noses at the U.S. homicide rate based on the prevalence of guns are, no offense, idiots. Apparently, even with small populations, less diversity, and a lack of weaponry, they're only able to prevent 4 homicides per 100,000 people than in the U.S. Hardly bragging rights.
Now, obviously, any homicides by any means are too many. But the number of gun homicides compared to the number of guns out there suggests that, in general, Americans have remarkable trigger control.
_______________________________
With 393 million guns circulating, it's simply unrealistic to think that "gun control" is the solution. Most states have all kinds of laws disallowing people with documented serious mental illness from buying guns. But we see that enforcement is often cursory, and people frequently lie about their past when filling out paperwork. Hunter Biden, for instance. Are you sure you really want the government to have access to all data from your physician, therapist, psychiatrist, etc.?
Far more realistic is to identify the people who are most likely to erupt in violence and keep track of them -- as opposed to keeping track of the rest of us. As I mentioned, we almost always know who they are. However, that means a mental health infrastructure that is not used for political ends as well as honest oversight. And many of us are skeptical of that right now.
I don't think anyone disagrees with the basic premise that severely or violently mentally ill people shouldn't have access to firearms. I'm not so thrilled with their having access to automobiles or even traveling by subway, for that matter. But we cannot let perfect be the enemy of good. There is literally no way to round up 393 million guns, and even if we did, there is no political impetus to seal the southern border from gun smuggling by the cartels that control it. You can even print your own gun for a suprisingly low cost and minimal know-how.
Do we really want to "do something" about public homicides? I'm not certain that we do. How many of us want to tell a parent, "I'm sorry, but your son has a long-documented series of actions that suggest that he's dangerous to society. We must lock him up and/or monitor him carefully for the good of society"? How many of us want to risk making a mistake when making such evaluations?
That's the difference between "doing something" and "feeling good." What we need to do will be painful, unpleasant, and will definitely not leave us feeling good. It will leave us feeling awful. And that's what leadership means -- doing what is necessary even when it feels awful. |
I humbly disagree that you can't keep track of the guns. There are BILLIONS of cell phones being tracked as we speak. There is non reason NOT to put technology to good use by tracking guns, bullets etc...
It wouldn't even need brilliant people to figure out a way...
And making this about mental health, while true, is wrong. It will take years to change mental health situation in this country (even to train enough psychologists for our population for FREE would take a good few years.)
You cannot claim to be a pro-life republican and still defend constitutional right to bear arms in this day and age.
Actions have consequences. Republicans/NRA etc has to stand up and say, until we figure out and enforce the laws of gun ownership, there is a FREEZE. Don't just save pregnancies, save lives as well.
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Ema of 5
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Wed, May 25 2022, 5:15 pm
| STMommy wrote: | 1. He had been bullied as a child for a speech impediment.
2. He was being raised by his mother who was a drug addict.
3. He played violent video games like Fortnite in all his spare time.
4. When he started experimenting with his appearance (black eyeliner for example) he started getting bullied using offensive terms for gay people. |
Reminds me of Columbine….
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gold21
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Wed, May 25 2022, 5:15 pm
| GiGichai wrote: | I humbly disagree that you can't keep track of the guns. There are BILLIONS of cell phones being tracked as we speak. There is non reason NOT to put technology to good use by tracking guns, bullets etc...
It wouldn't even need brilliant people to figure out a way...
And making this about mental health, while true, is wrong. It will take years to change mental health situation in this country (even to train enough psychologists for our population for FREE would take a good few years.)
You cannot claim to be a pro-life republican and still defend constitutional right to bear arms in this day and age.
Actions have consequences. Republicans/NRA etc has to stand up and say, until we figure out and enforce the laws of gun ownership, there is a FREEZE. Don't just save pregnancies, save lives as well. |
We absolutely cannot freeze legal access to guns until illegal access is dealt with.
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Ema of 5
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Wed, May 25 2022, 5:17 pm
| GiGichai wrote: | We need to get the frum shadchans to do background checks on all people getting guns. Lol. They would find out EVERYTHING.
Unstable children and adults will exist forever and it is extremely difficult to make sure that all get the help they need.
There needs to be a better way to prevent those people from accessing a gun. |
Unless there is documented evident of mental instability, it won’t prevent someone from getting a gun. I do agree there needs to be a better system though.
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shanarishona
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Wed, May 25 2022, 5:18 pm
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Why aren’t existing gun laws being enforced and what can be done to make that happen?
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Ema of 5
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Wed, May 25 2022, 5:22 pm
| BokerTov wrote: | Do all our schools, yeshivos, and shuls have armed guards?
Not where I live.
What are we doing to prevent this from happening again? |
My kids schools all have security guard and security protocols, but I don’t know if they are armed. I got an email today from one school that they have reached out to an armed security company and will be hiring armed security.
Teachers need to be armed, and just like they have ongoing teacher training, they need to have mandatory ongoing firearms training.
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sushilover
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Wed, May 25 2022, 5:23 pm
| GiGichai wrote: | I humbly disagree that you can't keep track of the guns. There are BILLIONS of cell phones being tracked as we speak. There is non reason NOT to put technology to good use by tracking guns, bullets etc...
It wouldn't even need brilliant people to figure out a way...
And making this about mental health, while true, is wrong. It will take years to change mental health situation in this country (even to train enough psychologists for our population for FREE would take a good few years.)
You cannot claim to be a pro-life republican and still defend constitutional right to bear arms in this day and age.
Actions have consequences. Republicans/NRA etc has to stand up and say, until we figure out and enforce the laws of gun ownership, there is a FREEZE. Don't just save pregnancies, save lives as well. |
Canada spent almost 3 Billion dollars creating a national gun registry. Do you know how many lives they saved and how many gun crimes it helped them solve?
Nada
Zero
Zilch
The program was ended in 2012 for that reason.
For America to do the same, you can expect costs to run around 100 billion and have the same results. Spend 100 billion on mental health could possibly do some good. (It would also bankrupt our country which would lead to more deaths in the long run... but in theory it is a far better solution than a registry.)
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sushilover
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Wed, May 25 2022, 5:29 pm
| GiGichai wrote: |
You cannot claim to be a pro-life republican and still defend constitutional right to bear arms in this day and age.
Actions have consequences. Republicans/NRA etc has to stand up and say, until we figure out and enforce the laws of gun ownership, there is a FREEZE. Don't just save pregnancies, save lives as well. |
What a ridiculous thing to say. I don't blame you. It's the new media propaganda.
I don't want innocent babies to be electively killed in utero so that means I have to force Americans to give up their guns which save lives every day? That makes no sense.
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monkeymamma
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Wed, May 25 2022, 5:35 pm
| GiGichai wrote: | A child/adult who is mentally unstable enough to murder 20 people is not doing it for attention posthumously. One article does not explain anything.
We cannot safely allow access to guns to so many people.
The constitution isn't toras Moshe misinai. Holding on to laws that make this place unsafe is an oxymoron. There has to be a total freeze (like a timeout for children with bad behavior) on selling guns to ANYBODY until we can have a reasonable/practical way for healthy adults own adults and put tracking devices on each gun and each bullet. If they come together, an alarm sounds at the police or something. There is seriously enough technology in this day and age that I'm sure the NRA can figure out something.
Constitutional rights is NOT an excuse anymore when there is a need and a way to figure out who has the guns and bullets at ALL times in this day and age. |
It was George Bush, a republican, who signed the Gun Free Zone Act (as part of the crime control act of 1990) in 1990. You should read more about it before you attack and even blame republicans for school shootings-- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/....._1990
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exaustedmom
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Wed, May 25 2022, 5:39 pm
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797 people were killed in Chicago in 2021. Over 3,500 were shot. Chicago has very strict gun laws.
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Raisin
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Wed, May 25 2022, 5:42 pm
| Quote: | | First of all, it's tough to make comparisons with other countries simply because of the size of the U.S. and the diversity of the population. Getting along with your fellow countrymen is a lot harder in the U.S. than almost anywhere else. If your entire country is relatively homogeneous in terms of race, ethnicity, background, and values? Well, ich ken oich azoi! |
Umm, what country exactly are you referring to that is homogenoeous? Maybe some Eastern European countries that don't attract a lot of immigrants, but most of Western Europe is extremely diverse with a wide range of different ethnicities, race and religion. Racial problems are less severe since there is little history of slavery in Europe itself, but plenty of leftover issues from colonial days in countries like France and the UK.
| Quote: |
But in fact, the U.S. has a total homide rate of approximately 6 per 100,000 residents while European nations are typically around 2 per 100,000. |
And the difference in numbers you are talking about are pretty substantial although you somehow make it sound less.
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sushilover
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Wed, May 25 2022, 5:44 pm
| exaustedmom wrote: | | 797 people were killed in Chicago in 2021. Over 3,500 were shot. Chicago has very strict gun laws. |
According to mainstream logic, do you know who is to blame? Obviously, my friend who owns 20 guns and never hurt a single person with any of them. (He did once lift his shirt to show his gun when he was confronted by a violent tenant in a building he managed.) Because why does one person need so many guns??? He must love the constitution more than he loves the people of Chicago! If we just took away all of his semi-automatics, the people of Chicago would be safe!
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Cheiny
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Wed, May 25 2022, 5:47 pm
| gold21 wrote: | Terrible, horrible, sick, and horrifying.
And so crazy that we allow guns to pour in through the southern border. Read up on the rates of gun violence in South American countries like El Salvador, Honduras, Guatemala, etc. And we leave our border so accessible. This town was right near the border, by the way- that's why I bring it up. I have no idea if the killer obtain r the gun legally or illegally, but it's a question worth asking.
Also- Did the school have security measures in place? What security measures specifically were in place?
Awful. Terrible. Heartbreaking. |
Heartbreaking indeed. But dems never miss an opportunity to turn a tragedy into a political ploy. The lowlife clown, Beto Orourke had the nerve today to come to the meeting with Texas officials and start pointing fingers to try to score political points with… ??? Does anyone take him seriously, even the naive, gullible, Trump-hating brainiacs??
What a disgusting display of heartlessness. He couldn’t care less about the victims, their families, only how he could use it for his benefit…. Same for Biden’s handlers who had him read last night, at the height of the pain the country was experiencing over this massacre, some nonsense in order to point fingers at the right. What a disgrace. What a low point for our country, just when you think they can’t go any lower, or hurt our country any more than they already have…
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Cheiny
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Wed, May 25 2022, 5:50 pm
| sushilover wrote: | Canada spent almost 3 Billion dollars creating a national gun registry. Do you know how many lives they saved and how many gun crimes it helped them solve?
Nada
Zero
Zilch
The program was ended in 2012 for that reason.
For America to do the same, you can expect costs to run around 100 billion and have the same results. Spend 100 billion on mental health could possibly do some good. (It would also bankrupt our country which would lead to more deaths in the long run... but in theory it is a far better solution than a registry.) |
Our country has billions available to send to Ukraine but when it comes to helping Americans… nah.
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Ema of 5
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Wed, May 25 2022, 5:51 pm
| Cheiny wrote: | Heartbreaking indeed. But dems never miss an opportunity to turn a tragedy into a political ploy. The lowlife clown, Beto Orourke had the nerve today to come to the meeting with Texas officials and start pointing fingers to try to score political points with… ??? Does anyone take him seriously, even the naive, gullible, Trump-hating brainiacs??
What a disgusting display of heartlessness. He couldn’t care less about the victims, their families, only how he could use it for his benefit…. Same for Biden’s handlers who had him read last night, at the height of the pain the country was experiencing over this massacre, some nonsense in order to point fingers at the right. What a disgrace. What a low point for our country, just when you think they can’t go any lower, or hurt our country any more than they already have… |
I agree his display was abhorrent, but has there ever been a president that didn’t say “stricter gun laws” and mention the NRA after a school shooting?
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