Teen forged my signature

AlwaysGrateful

Thu, May 26 2022, 12:27 pm

So I think all the responses might be missing the point of this OP. It's not about the grade, or about making a kid feel badly for not studying well. That's not the OP's issue with the grade.

It's that she's CAPABLE of getting a good grade. She knew all the answers on the test, but just rushed through it. If she's not getting a good grade and knows all of the answers on the test, it's obviously because she's being lazy. Otherwise why couldn't she take the extra few minutes to check over her test and get the answers right?

I know, because I have a wonderful loving mother who I have an excellent relationship with, and always have, including as a teen. And I was lazy. And irresponsible. I loved math, for example, and was very good at it, but would often bomb a test because I rushed through it and made careless errors. It drove my mother crazy. My teachers would say things at PTA and on my report card about "not reaching her potential" even though I was getting mostly As and a couple of Bs. "You could be valedictorian if you only tried a little bit!" "You got a 92 without even studying...If you'd looked over your notes for 15 minutes, that would have been an 100!"

I remember in seminary trying to learn through Mesilas Yesharim on laziness, since I knew that was the one middah I was awful at. I was obviously lazy.

Turns out, my brain works differently than other people's. It's not laziness, it's a lack of dopamine. I have inattentive ADHD, but the name of the diagnosis isn't the point. The point is that for years I felt so frustrated with myself that I couldn't put in a fraction of the effort that others were. I could NOT check over my test any more than I could cut off my own finger. I just didn't have the emotional effort that it required, nor the tools to make it take less emotional effort.

I now have a teen with ADHD. I have learned tools that can help increase dopamine, and I try to gently share those tools with him. But mostly, I try to empathize with him. Show him I'm on his team and ask if she wants to shmooze about some ideas that might help for next time....

amother

Thu, May 26 2022, 12:38 pm

amother [ Thistle ] wrote:

So she's capable, how come she's not getting good grades? Why isn't she trying?

And why are you judging her based on how hard you think she is trying instead of just accepting her as she is?

You're not doing her any favors, you know. She might turn into an overachiever for a period of time in her efforts to reach 100% and please you, and then she'll burn out, as a young mother who realizes she can never be 100%....which means she isn't really trying, because if she tried she WOULD make 100%, and obviously since no one loves her or appreciates her unless she makes 100%, everything she's doing is worthless and no one cares about her, because they only care when she succeeds, not when she fails.

You are her mother, you are teaching her how the world sees and appreciates her. Is this the message you want her to be getting? That she is only seen, loved, appreciated, that her efforts are only worth anything, if she tries very very hard and succeeds 100%?

OK honey I know what's going on and started to write it before realizing that I don't have to explain every detail here to make you all think I'm not a horrible mother.
I posted a WWYD question, not a why do u think my daughter got that grade question. I am very much in touch with her teachers and that's not a question I have or need to discuss here. Nor is my parenting style. Nor was it a question of if y'all think my kid hates me. Or if we need family therapy.
My question was solely abt the forging and I got some on target responses so ty.

amother

Pink

Thu, May 26 2022, 12:42 pm

I have a good relationship with my children (I think) even so, years later they laughed and said that they wrote my signature on a test paper or a note that they didn't want me to see. (I wouldn't call it forged though, that sounds much more sinister)
We both laughed about it and I didn't put them to task about it. Of course they knew that what they did was wrong. They know that I think that marks are not the main point in life and they know that I strongly teach them to say the truth at all times even when it's not comfortable.
Life is a growth process and every test is a chance for a better you.
I definitely don't think of them less or write them off as dishonest people just because they fell through and did this.

Last edited by amother on Thu, May 26 2022, 1:08 pm; edited 1 time in total

Fox

Thu, May 26 2022, 12:48 pm

amother [ Snapdragon ] wrote:

Not to derail the conversation here but you might have been wrong about some of those kids. My DD will fight for every point because she wants it. We soooo don’t make a big deal about grades (she is really bright & does well in school b”h), but she will fight for every point she thinks she deserves. I was the same way (my parents didn’t reward either), it always bothered me if I felt my grade wasn’t ‘fair’. It was like getting paid less than I deserved for work I did.

You're right. I phrased that badly. It's a problem whenever a kid becomes obsessed with grades and similar kinds of evaluations. Sometimes the problem arises or is exacerbated by the parents, and sometimes it's just the kid's nature.

In fact, it's often a circular problem for bright, good students. They begin to build their identity on being a "good student," and because authority figures in their lives validate that identity, there's no check or balance. At some point, though, it always backfires. It might be if they go to college or some other kind of education that is significantly more difficult. It might be if they attempt to explore a subject that isn't in their preferred skill set. It might be when they get their first "real" job and discover that validation isn't given through quizzes, tests, papers, and at the end of every semester.

As others have mentioned, I'm also a little uncomfortable with the idea of focusing too much on "effort." One of my pet peeves at all levels of education is that we reward "effort" rather than "efficiency" or even "progress." We constantly teach students to work harder rather than smarter. Of course, smarter or talented students do have a natural advantage. But we should be saying, "Here's what you need to learn to X level of proficiency. How can we get you to that level or beyond with the least amount of work, energy, and aggravation?" Instead, we often penalize students for figuring out how to do things more efficiently.

amother

Orange

Thu, May 26 2022, 12:58 pm

Honestly? No, grades aren't that important. Effort is. And when my kids get below 80 that's good too. Now how would I react to the forged signature? Ask her why she did it, disappointment is not the word I would use. She was careless, is there a reason for that? Get to the root of the situation without discussing the grade. And what is a bad grade in your mind? I was a c student in many subjects because I wasn't taught using the right methods. I did well in math when I had good teachers. It is not up to the parents to evaluate school work, that's the teachers job. You are there to provide a safe environment where she can say and do what makes her happy within your rules. Make the rules reasonable, please.

amother

Thistle

Thu, May 26 2022, 1:05 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

HONEY?? Excuse me but you have no right to talk down at me.

No you don't have to explain every detail. That wasn't the point. The point is that your daughter is screaming something, silently, by means of her forgery.

I never said she hates you. I never said you're a horrible mother. But you know what? The fact that you are so defensive and so condescending says a lot. About you. About you as a mother. About your relationship with your daughter. It says I touched a really sore spot. So that's good, sit with that. Think about it. There's no need to respond nastily. It made you uncomfortable - like you said, you don't owe any of US an explanation. You do owe yourself and your daughter an explanation. So just sit and stew and fix what needs to be fixed instead of trying to shoot the messenger.

I'm glad you've gotten some answers that you feel answered your question. I have a feeling I know which ones they are. Chaval that you are so defensive that you feel a need to attack me.

amother

Thistle

Thu, May 26 2022, 1:07 pm

AlwaysGrateful wrote:

This is also what crossed my mind but her daughter is a teen by now, so I'm guessing this isn't the first time ADHD has been mentioned as a possibility. If she doesn't have a diagnosis yet, and she's not being treated yet, then from experience as a teacher it's because the parents aren't interested in their child getting the diagnosis or any possible help that might come with it. For whatever reasons. (Which is why I didn't mention it either.)

There are always a couple girls in school whose parents are like this....

amother

Thu, May 26 2022, 1:08 pm

amother [ Thistle ] wrote:

Wow chaval that you have such a reaction to the word Honey. Go take same deep breaths.

amother

Amber

Thu, May 26 2022, 1:31 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

.No one here thinks it's important for her to put in the effort? It's not a subject she struggles with and she doesn't have learning disabilities. She is actually smart.

People with ADHD can be very smart. I was (tyvm). I was that A student while barely trying. ADHD doesn't mean learning disability. It's a neurodivergence.

And in fact, the smarter the person with ADHD, the more difficult it is to pick up because people think they're smart, so they start getting called things like "lazy" and "careless". They get blamed as though it's a moral failing that their brain works a different way and this leads to lifelong anxiety and other mental health issues. You seriously think a kid who knows all the answers and could easily fill them in chose to blissfully put in the wrong information just because? A kid who's so worried about her grade that she forged her mother's signature instead of showing it to you?

What does it hurt to get her evaluated?

amother

Vermilion

Thu, May 26 2022, 1:31 pm

AlwaysGrateful wrote:

Maybe she’s having an issue with that teacher….
Maybe she is having a different issue in school….
Maybe she is having an issue out of school….
It’s not automatically laziness.
It’s not automatically ADHD.
There are plenty of other things going on in life as well

amother

Amber

Thu, May 26 2022, 1:32 pm

AlwaysGrateful wrote:

Thanks for posting this AG. This explains it perfectly.

amother

Begonia

Thu, May 26 2022, 1:58 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Really no one here thinks good grades are important? If it makes a difference to the point, I went thru the test with her and she knew every answer, the problem - an ongoing problem - is that she is rushing through the test without putting in proper effort. No one here thinks it's important for her to put in the effort? It's not a subject she struggles with and she doesn't have learning disabilities. She is actually smart.

I actually understand where ur coming from. Last year, my daughter took school a little too easy. She is bright but didn’t have patience to put in minimal effort into her studies. I also felt that how much she’s uninterested in studying bec of laziness…. It was affecting her behavior. She wasn’t writing notes, so didn’t have what to study from or didn’t know the material bec she wasn’t listening… and it didn’t do any good for her self esteem. I felt that if she would put her mind to it and study she would feel better abt herself… the whole cycle….
If a child has a hard time scholastically I would def go another route though.

amother

Cyan

Thu, May 26 2022, 2:22 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

WWYD? I'd let it go. Know that it's normal for teens and not a life-long moral failing. Give her a code word that she could use before telling you anything and she won't get in trouble or yelled at for it.

About the rushing through tests, you can let that go too... remind her that if she rushes through and gets answers wrong, her teachers won't be able to measure how much information she knows and bad grades could hurt her with seminary/college applications. But really, what does it matter? I was a perfectionist in school, would review my test 3 times to catch my careless mistakes (which the teachers always pointed out) and now I WISH someone would have taught me how to let go! That need for perfection followed me to work and hurts me way more than bad grades would have.

amother

Clover

Thu, May 26 2022, 3:33 pm

I reward some of my kids for good test grades. Sue me. If I know they can do better and they aren't interested in putting in the effort, I offer that extra incentive. Check out my 8th grader's report card. First trimester he failed every subject. Second and third are straight As for the first time in his life. I never expected more than an 80 from him all these years. Should have done it sooner.
My 6th grader I rewarded for every worksheet she filled out on her own. Because she was so stiffly bored in class, she figured out she can read novels during the lesson and then copy her friend's answers later. That also turned her year around.
If the child is capable but needs a bit of extra motivation, it's very appropriate to reward grades.

Alternative

Thu, May 26 2022, 3:43 pm

Is your dd 13 or 15?
I think teens should not have to bring tests home to get signed. Certainly not teens aged 14 and up. They are not babies and they should learn to deal with the consequences.

I also think parents don't need to be so involved with kids' test results that they ask to see every grade. Not at this age. Give the kid some space, and maybe she will want to study for her own sake, not because she is scared what mom will say about a bad grade.

She was wrong to forge, of course, but the whole system (school and parent) here is pushing her into a corner.

amother

Tan

Thu, May 26 2022, 3:43 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

I do this on rare occasions. I have a middle school child who is extremely bright but was failing a certain class one semester because the child rushes through assignments and tests. They know the material very well but were simply not putting in the effort. I don't want my child to be removed from the honors class in this subject because that's truly where they belong and it's a shame. So I offered a certain monetary amount if they end the semester with a B or higher. Child got 103 on the next test and decided to ask the teacher for extra work to raise their grade. So I don't do this frequently but sometimes it's worthwhile. Not every opportunity for a child to experience natural consequences needs to be taken. And the child gets a little reminder that effort pays off, when grades on their own are meaningless to them otherwise.