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I want to keep hosting for simchas, but…
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amother
OP


 

Post Tue, Jun 07 2022, 3:21 am
We have two beautiful bedrooms and a bathroom (with a separate entrance) and have bH been privileged to host guests, sometimes large families (one of our bedrooms can fit five kids) over the years for simchas in the neighborhood. For the most part, it has been a positive experience and our guests have been wonderful, although we’ve had our share of crazy stories as well (think guests seriously damaging the carpet and leaving without saying a word, having shouting matches 6:00 AM, etc…)

It has come to the point where we are having several large issues and I wanted opinions on how to say this/work it out, because we want to continue doing the mitzvah but have to be able to make it work.

Firstly, we’ve been having issues with guests’ little children waking our family hours earlier than we would’ve gotten up. I am lucky that my kids usually sleep late - till at least 10:00 - on shabbos, so when a young family gets up at 6:30 and wakes my kids along with theirs it’s extremely upsetting. Shabbos is my one day to sleep; I work full time and don’t sleep enough all week, and I rely on shabbos to catch up. Our guest bedrooms/bathroom are extremely private and you’d have to scream really loud to be heard all the way upstairs where our bedrooms are, but the playroom next to them - which inevitably the kids gravitate to once their awake, has an open staircase that travels all the way to the second floor and we hear everything from that room. Guests who have several (or even one) little kids and don’t keep them quiet in the playroom will inevitably wake my family. But how can I tell them they need to be quiet?

Also, whether or not they ask permission, the guests almost always end up playing with the toys in our playroom. My children have gotten increasingly resentful over the years. It’s gotten to the point where we created a separate closet of the toys they don’t want others to touch, like their special Lego or playmobil, and put a visible lock on the door, but believe it or not, some guests disregard that and will help themselves to any toy….I want my children to give of themselves and happily do the mitzvah of hachnosas orchim…but they have gotten so upset as of late…when my kids hear there will be guests they literally kick and scream..is that bad middos on their part or normal behavior…we’ve tried everything but short of moving all the toys up to their bedroom, which we don’t have room or time for, we don’t know what else to do…

Lastly, although I always make a disclaimer when saying guests could come and tell the ‘Baal Simcha’ to explain that my children will need to use the playroom over shabbos, some guests do sort of park themselves there for a large part of shabbos. If they don’t sit in their bedrooms, where else should they go? Think people who are here for shabbos sheva berachos but are from the chassan side and so have no reason to go to the Baal Simcha house to ‘hang out’…they can be by us till 1:00 pm till they eat the seudah and then immediately afterwards all afternoon…I always feel so bad for those guests who have no where to go and nothing to do…but then my kids don’t have their playroom, and if it’s bad weather and they’re stuck inside they can be very resentful.

Looking for imas who’ve had similar experiences..what did you do? I can’t create a whole set of ‘rules’ for guests / when we were guests at such a house for a Simcha, it made us feel so unwelcome…
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Heyaaa




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jun 07 2022, 3:35 am
You can say whatever you want. You should have rules with your space and you should tell them, rather than being resentful. They are getting a free stay so they will be happy even if you give them rules. Even if some people aren’t happy, then they aren’t a good fit for your home. Some of the things you mentioned are expectations that if the host felt otherwise then she would’ve said so. People assume that if the host didn’t mention it then she doesn’t care.

I never know how to be a good guest. I always try to stay away as much as possible so as not to intrude but there are people who find that rude. The best thing to do is to express your expectations
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Heyaaa




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jun 07 2022, 3:38 am
Also, I saw two rules for the guests. Please try to keep your kids as quiet as possible until you hear my kids are awake and please only use these two baskets of toys. Then, if there’s bad weather, tell your kids that this week they will have to be mevater. If it’s rare then it shouldn’t bother them as much.
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Sesame




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jun 07 2022, 3:39 am
One thing my rav always says is if it infringes on your children, do chessed to your children first
Them invading your children privacy and touching their private things without permission is shocking and not okay. Not remotely!
Either be honest - the playroom isn’t available (but I would leave them toys!) or take a break for now until you can figure out how this can work for your children. Do they have to know you have a playroom? The noise and invasion of privacy just doesn’t work. It’s not okay to go somewhere and wake up a family! I don’t go anywhere because of this, unless we can get our own place.
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Heyaaa




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jun 07 2022, 3:46 am
I also don’t understand why they’re by you. Why can’t they take their kids to a park. That’s what I do. I really try not to impose and I hope I don’t do it in the opposite direction by not being there enough.

Even if they’re there for the other side, they can spend time with the siblings in law at the shul.
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amother
OP


 

Post Tue, Jun 07 2022, 3:48 am
Sesame wrote:
One thing my rav always says is if it infringes on your children, do chessed to your children first
Them invading your children privacy and touching their private things without permission is shocking and not okay. Not remotely!
Either be honest - the playroom isn’t available (but I would leave them toys!) or take a break for now until you can figure out how this can work for your children. Do they have to know you have a playroom? The noise and invasion of privacy just doesn’t work. It’s not okay to go somewhere and wake up a family! I don’t go anywhere because of this, unless we can get our own place.


Thanks for validating. The bedrooms and bathroom are off the playroom, so they will obviously know it’s there because they have to go through it to get to their own (very separate) suite.
I don’t know what it is…yes people do sort of have expectations that they can just touch or use anything…and it’s very hard to make lots of ‘rules’.
Also, maybe they don’t realize (even though if you look at it you can see the open steps going all the way up) and they feel that the basement playroom is more private than it is so they feel okay to make noise…
Yes I HATE being a guest in a stranger home for this reason and that’s why I feel so bad for them…but yes my kids are going crazy Sad
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salt




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jun 07 2022, 3:50 am
Heyaaa wrote:
Also, I saw two rules for the guests. Please try to keep your kids as quiet as possible until you hear my kids are awake and please only use these two baskets of toys. Then, if there’s bad weather, tell your kids that this week they will have to be mevater. If it’s rare then it shouldn’t bother them as much.


This sounds good.

Also, I didn't understand, you said you lock up certain toys in the playroom, but they still play with them. Do they break the lock?
Can you try a stronger lock? Or lock the playroom, and ask guests to bring a few toys with them?

If they are coming for a simcha, they are probably not in your home many hours. They can bring with them a couple of favourite toys for the morning.
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amother
OP


 

Post Tue, Jun 07 2022, 3:51 am
Heyaaa wrote:
I also don’t understand why they’re by you. Why can’t they take their kids to a park. That’s what I do. I really try not to impose and I hope I don’t do it in the opposite direction by not being there enough.

Even if they’re there for the other side, they can spend time with the siblings in law at the shul.


There is no park at all in the neighborhood. Closest one is at least 15 minutes away. Many people do try to be in the host’s house as little as possible, which is what I do when I’m a guest at such a Simcha, but some people really hang out. Maybe sometimes they just don’t know where to go. It can get to be a lot, because they become guests that are much more than just sleeping guests…

Maybe it also boils down to social skills and what’s expected - or not - in each community…

But then I feel so guilty for feeling that way…
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amother
Caramel


 

Post Tue, Jun 07 2022, 3:51 am
Any way you can have a door with a lock or something between the guest room and playroom? Why is it a given that the playroom is for their use? When you show them their bedroom and bathroom just finish there. I’ve been a guest plenty times and never stepped foot out of the bedroom I was shown to and into their living quarters.
It should be common sense that they can’t just take over your house.
About kids waking earlier than yours, that’s probably something much harder to control. You can’t teach a toddler not to move or make noise once up. If you find it too hard to put up with, it’s ok to tell the Baal simcha that your guest room is available for adults only.
You’re doing a huge mitzva, do it only the way you can without feeling resentful and giving up on hosting altogether!
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amother
Aster


 

Post Tue, Jun 07 2022, 3:52 am
If there is a separate entrance and bathroom there is no reason at all they should be entering the part of the house you live in.
You can leave them some toys in their room.
You can also decide not to host families with little children.
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amother
OP


 

Post Tue, Jun 07 2022, 3:55 am
salt wrote:
This sounds good.

Also, I didn't understand, you said you lock up certain toys in the playroom, but they still play with them. Do they break the lock?
Can you try a stronger lock? Or lock the playroom, and ask guests to bring a few toys with them?

If they are coming for a simcha, they are probably not in your home many hours. They can bring with them a couple of favourite toys for the morning.


No it’s not a lock you’d break. More like a child lock that’s very obviously locked when the other closets aren’t. We’ve even tried hanging sweet signs up on the closet doors…please use this one, etc.

The playroom doesn’t have a lock. It’s one big open room that they must walk through to get to their rooms.

And sometimes people hang out for many hours, from when they’re up in the morning until the seudah, and after the seudah for many hours…
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amother
OP


 

Post Tue, Jun 07 2022, 3:58 am
So to clarify, although there is a separate entrance, they must walk through the playroom to get to their rooms because that is how the house was set up. There are many guests who just use the bedrooms and then leave to wherever they’re going and we barely see them. If they come back to nap in the afternoon that is fine too. But others assume that since the bedrooms and bathroom are ‘off’ the playroom then they’ve been given the whole basement and they hang out here. I can’t really tell people they can’t. It’s uncomfortable.
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amother
Aster


 

Post Tue, Jun 07 2022, 4:01 am
amother [ OP ] wrote:
So to clarify, although there is a separate entrance, they must walk through the playroom to get to their rooms because that is how the house was set up. There are many guests who just use the bedrooms and then leave to wherever they’re going and we barely see them. If they come back to nap in the afternoon that is fine too. But others assume that since the bedrooms and bathroom are ‘off’ the playroom then they’ve been given the whole basement and they hang out here. I can’t really tell people they can’t. It’s uncomfortable.


I can't imagine having strangers in my playroom every so often. If I felt uncomfortable telling them that it is off limits I probably would not have families with little kids over.
Its ok to ask the Baalei simcha to put up older families with you.
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Sesame




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jun 07 2022, 4:07 am
amother [ OP ] wrote:
No it’s not a lock you’d break. More like a child lock that’s very obviously locked when the other closets aren’t. We’ve even tried hanging sweet signs up on the closet doors…please use this one, etc.

The playroom doesn’t have a lock. It’s one big open room that they must walk through to get to their rooms.

And sometimes people hang out for many hours, from when they’re up in the morning until the seudah, and after the seudah for many hours…


When you show them to their room I’d very casually say….
I’ve left this basket of toys on the floor if you want, the others are my childrens special toys so those are put away in the locked cupboard (extremely clear and firm but polite). Also, the noise carries when in the playroom and wakes my kids before they’re ready to get up, so from 10 in the morning it should be okay to be in here, but not before. Do you want me to leave the basket of toys in the kids room for you?
Then show them to their room. Don’t focus on it like a strict rule, but it’s clear. So now when they see the signs of not these toys and the lock they’re aware that you didn’t give permission. And they know to stay in their rooms.
Also, most ppl don’t realise, but when told will definitely be happy to comply! Wouldn’t bother me at all as a guest if you told me. I’d rather know not to disturb you!
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ora_43




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jun 07 2022, 4:08 am
Sounds like the setup isn't working. Can you put another door somewhere between the downstairs playroom and upstairs? I don't think that keeping kids quiet for 4 hours, keeping them in the bedroom, or going outside with them at 6:30 am are reasonable options - but "please keep the door at the top of the stairs closed" is a very reasonable request.

Similarly, for toys, I think "no playing with the toys" is going to be hard (obviously you're allowed to make that request, they're your kids' toys, but equally obviously small kids who are being hosted are going to be very eager to play with any toys in sight), but "kids can play with these toys, but not with the ones in the closet" is very reasonable and should be very doable for guests.

What's the issue making your kids upset? That they don't want guests playing with their special toys? (ie, if guests respect the sanctity of the special toy closet, all is well)? that they don't want guests playing with any of their toys? Or that they don't have space to play with their toys when and where they want because there are guests in the playroom? (and is the issue that they don't enjoy the playroom when there are strangers there? or just that they can't get out their special toys because the other kids will want to use them too?)

Different potential fixes depending on the exact problem.

Another thought - if it's easy hosting guests who will mostly be at someone else's house, and hard hosting guests who will be hanging around all morning, is there any way to only (or mostly) host the former type? I think you might be able to solve part of the problem by speaking to the hosts, rather than the guests, something like "we'd be happy to host if they'd mostly just be sleeping here, but our setup isn't great if they'd be spending most of the day here."
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amother
OP


 

Post Tue, Jun 07 2022, 4:15 am
Really thanks so much for all the replies.

We can’t put a door on top of the steps. They’re open, windy steps that are beautiful but impractical. They go all the way up to the second floor. The middle of the house is ‘open’. It’s hard to explain but there is simply no place for a a door unless I’d do major construction.

The guests do have to have somewhere to go when their kids wake up, and it’s very hard to keep little kids quiet. So yeah, I’m toying with the idea of saying I can’t have little kids, but since we have to ‘room’ it would feel really bad to me and others in the neighborhood would have a hard time understanding (I know it’s too bad in them but that’s just what would be…)
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WhatFor




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jun 07 2022, 4:18 am
amother [ Aster ] wrote:
I can't imagine having strangers in my playroom every so often. If I felt uncomfortable telling them that it is off limits I probably would not have families with little kids over.
Its ok to ask the Baalei simcha to put up older families with you.


This. It's totally fine to tell people that you can only host people ages x or above for right now. Try to avoid giving reasons but if you must, just say it's currently conflicting with your kids' needs so you had to decide between hosting older families or hosting no one.

Don't explain beyond that because you'll just get people claiming their guests would never do such and such whose guests' kids will certainly do such and such.

If this doesn't solve it, I'd consider severely limiting or stopping for now. I don't think it's good chinuch for your kids to wind up resentful of this mitzvah because of some guests' bad behavior. Shabbat is really supposed to be family time and if guests are significantly disrupting this, it's not fair to your kids. You can always ask a Rav for guidance if you're not sure what to do but chessed always begins at home.
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amother
OP


 

Post Tue, Jun 07 2022, 4:21 am
ora_43 wrote:
Sounds like the setup isn't working. Can you put another door somewhere between the downstairs playroom and upstairs? I don't think that keeping kids quiet for 4 hours, keeping them in the bedroom, or going outside with them at 6:30 am are reasonable options - but "please keep the door at the top of the stairs closed" is a very reasonable request.

Similarly, for toys, I think "no playing with the toys" is going to be hard (obviously you're allowed to make that request, they're your kids' toys, but equally obviously small kids who are being hosted are going to be very eager to play with any toys in sight), but "kids can play with these toys, but not with the ones in the closet" is very reasonable and should be very doable for guests.

What's the issue making your kids upset? That they don't want guests playing with their special toys? (ie, if guests respect the sanctity of the special toy closet, all is well)? that they don't want guests playing with any of their toys? Or that they don't have space to play with their toys when and where they want because there are guests in the playroom? (and is the issue that they don't enjoy the playroom when there are strangers there? or just that they can't get out their special toys because the other kids will want to use them too?)

Different potential fixes depending on the exact problem.

Another thought - if it's easy hosting guests who will mostly be at someone else's house, and hard hosting guests who will be hanging around all morning, is there any way to only (or mostly) host the former type? I think you might be able to solve part of the problem by speaking to the hosts, rather than the guests, something like "we'd be happy to host if they'd mostly just be sleeping here, but our setup isn't great if they'd be spending most of the day here."


As I said, a door on top of the steps is an impossibility. Their bedrooms and bathroom are behind a closed door, but not the open playroom…

I have separate toy closets and have made it very clear which ones are for guests by putting signs on the doors and a lock in the closet that shouldn’t be open, but it didn’t always help…

I never expect kids to come and not be allowed to play with toys and they don’t see the toys they’re not allowed to play with, unless they specifically open the locked closet…

My kids are resentful and upset if their special toys are touched. And they have to wait till the guests are out of the house to take out their special toys (they might grumble but they’re okay with that).
They also don’t feel comfortable being in the playroom when guests are there (and I doubt the guests would feel comfortable either) unless they ‘make friends’ with them, which does happen sometimes. But sometimes the guests kids take over, and we’ve even had them show up with their own friends or family to hang out, and yeah, then my kids are basically ousted from their playroom…
It’s not the end of the world. But how can I stop them from resenting it?
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amother
OP


 

Post Tue, Jun 07 2022, 4:30 am
How do you tell the Baal Simcha that you can only host if the people will mostly be by her? Doesn’t that come across rude?
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ora_43




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jun 07 2022, 4:36 am
I posted before seeing what you said about the door.

It sounds like the real issue here is that you don't really have room for that many guests. You have bedroom space, but bedroom space isn't enough unless guests literally only need the bedroom and bathroom.

It's very very reasonable to not oust your kids from their only play space, or ask them to share it with strangers.

I think you can still host. But hosting specifically families with young kids who don't have anywhere else to be outside of meals, is a mitzva that will need to wait for later. (I do think kids can be expected to put up with the inconvenience of guests on rare occasions, when it's urgent, that's good chinuch. But as a regular thing, or when it's just a convenience for the guests and not a necessity - no.)

Tell your neighbors something changed. Or more, use technically-true statements to make it sound like something changed. "Now that the kids are older, we need most of the basement space for them" - true! You don't need to explain that the space you need is the playroom.

If the neighbors are upset about it, well, it must be tough for them, going through life feeling so entitled to other people's space. But that's hardly your problem.
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