S/O Question for yeshivish newly marrieds

amother

Heather

Thu, Jun 16 2022, 7:15 pm

amother [ Milk ] wrote:

@amother chestnut:
I'm feeling a little bit under attack.
I did not use the word "only" in my earlier post. I guess you are referring to the attitude you perceived from what I wrote.
To clarify, I am thankful for my kallah gifts. At the same time, my disappointment regarding the bracelet is valid. I have never said a word about it except for anonymously on this forum. My pearls aren't used and it seems a bit of a pointless gift but the intentions behind them were sincere and that's what counts.
Regarding the singer, that was my parents' choice. I did not expect it. They chose the singer and paid for it. They were actually going to surprise us all but during my engagement they accidentally forwarded me an email with the information.
Feeling frustrated/overwhelmed with wedding expenses as a married sibling is also valid. I know that in many communities the parents help pay for these expenses but at the same time there are many that can't, and that's okay too. But the expenses can still be overwhelming.
My sister in law who is from a wealthy family once mentioned somewhat flippantly to me that she wouldn't go to her husband's parents for yomtif unless they paid. I don't agree with that attitude. At the same time, it is valid to express that traveling expenses are also a big deal.
I totally get that you may be feeling overwhelmed from the other side as you near the mother in law stage of life. But don't take it out on me.

Just curious - what kind of bracelet do you feel they should have offered you? Aren’t diamond chip bracelets the standard kallah gift?

AlwaysGrateful

Thu, Jun 16 2022, 8:16 pm

traveller! wrote:

I think it's not so fair to cut down on the gifts for the kalla whilst not cutting down elsewhere. She grew up expecting the gifts and its a disappointment to miss out. When she sees they cut down everywhere it's clear they can't afford it but if they just cut down in certain areas it makes her feel undervalued and shiws their priorities. The kalla and chassan are most important and it's important they feel cherished and loved and I think it's the last place to cut down on. Just my thoughts.

Of course it's not fair to cut down just on the kallah gifts from what is "standard"! Obviously someone who cannot afford to shower expensive gifts on the kallah also isn't going to make a lavish wedding.

I haven't made a wedding yet (again, my kids aren't at that stage quite yet). But our bar mitzvahs, for example, have been very simple, yet nice. Our "splurge" is that we do invite all close family members for Shabbos to hear him lein (grandparents, aunts, uncles, first cousins), and we need to feed them all, and our house isn't big enough to do that. So we rent out an inexpensive space, get simple but good Shabbos food, tablecloths and whatever from a gemach, and done. Then we have a party for his friends and any family members who want to be there (note: not our friends, not neighbors, just family and the boy's friends because those are the essentials in my book), with a one-man band, simple food that comes as a package, and in the cheapest place it's possible to do it in town (which is still nice and our boys have been very happy with it). We've designed our own invitations and emailed them so no need to pay for printing and stamps. We've hired photographers who are amateur and have taken nice pictures for a fraction of the price of a regular photographer.

I could probably make about 10 bar mitzvahs in this style for the same price that seems to be the "norm" for a single wedding, once you take into account all of the "mandatory" kallah gifts.

I imagine our weddings being the same...unless the other side will be offended by it, in which case we'll have to figure out a compromise...which I'm also not looking forward to, but would try my hardest.

So cutting corners in all other places and then throwing SO much money at the kallah seems so counterintuitive. She's really been spending her whole life dreaming of pearls and diamonds? I don't know. That just doesn't sound like the hashkafa that I thought we're supposed to be raising our kids with.

Last edited by AlwaysGrateful on Thu, Jun 16 2022, 8:28 pm; edited 1 time in total

amother

Hyssop

Thu, Jun 16 2022, 8:20 pm

AlwaysGrateful wrote:

Please only respond if you both view yourself as yeshivish, and if you're less than three years post-wedding. This is about the period of your engagement.

Would you be offended if your in-laws did not give you a set of machzorim or a tehillim engraved with your name?
Would you be upset if they didn't buy you a leichter or bought you an inexpensive one, maybe a small one that cost 100-200 dollars, but not silver or anything?
Would you feel ignored if they didn't buy you a birthday present?
If your future in-laws sat down with you and explained that money was tight, and so while they would really like to buy you a beautiful diamond ring and diamond bracelet, they can either buy you a ring with small real diamond or a fake one, and the bracelet will have to be an inexpensive one (or if this was not discussed, what if your husband had simply presented these to you instead of the really expensive stuff)?

And my last question is...since many yeshivish couples start off in kollel, and are intending to live frugally for the next little while at least, how can you reconcile doing that while your parents/in-laws are putting themselves into major debt in order to buy you all of these gifts?

(Full disclosure: I am yeshivish but do not yet have kids who are shidduch age, just younger teens and down. But when I got married, I strongly considered asking for a cubic Z ring because it felt so wrong for me to ask my husband (who was paying for it) to spend all of this money on something so relatively unimportant when I knew that our years in kollel would depend on how long we could swing it financially. I only didn't ask because all of my friends and family -- including those who were yeshivish, MO, JPF, etc -- said it might offend him and wasn't worth it.)

[ETA this originally included questions about a car and shaitel, but I took those out because they were derailing the thread from my original question.]

(I did not read all the responses)

My parents raised us to be happy with what we have and to not feel entitled. Therefor when I got engaged I did not feel anything was 'coming to me'. My inlaws gave me a diamond ring and leichter and necklace. I was thrilled and grateful, I did not compare to what my friends or siblings got, I appreciate the gifts they gave me. My parents and inlaws split the wedding cost. I used my own money on furnishing and stocking up our apartment, from the furniture to the toilet paper. My parents bought me 2 sheitels, and paid for the gown rental, hair and makeup.

So no I was not offended to not get machzorim, siddur, tehillim etc.
My husband was not offended to not get every 'gift that has become the norm'
I probably wouldve been disappointed to not get a diamond ring because that is pretty much the only real jewelry I own. My inlaws can afford it, I suppose if I knew they couldnt I wouldve used wedding money.

Chayalle

Thu, Jun 16 2022, 9:37 pm

AlwaysGrateful wrote:

I honestly think that's a big part of my question, although I wasn't saying it straight out. I supported my husband in yeshiva on a very low salary for the years we were in kollel. We scrimped and saved and made it work. It was hard, but I really think those years played a big part in who I am today. I had several kids in a small two-bedroom apartment and we made it work and were proud that we could. My parents and in-laws showed love by giving us things, but they weren't expected. For example, when my mother offered to buy us a crib when I was pregnant with my first, I was so grateful. I had been expecting to pay for it myself, get one secondhand, something like that. She also helped me to stock my apartment with food before the wedding. My mother-in-law bought a bunch of cheap onesies for my oldest, and I was again so grateful that I didn't need to buy them myself. But they weren't expected, they were appreciated.

I'd like to be able to help my kids too, but I can't imagine I'll be able to afford it if I'm paying off all of the debt that I owe from marrying them off.

I guess I just don't understand this new kollel mentality. I don't think it existed for the masses when I got married, although I do think it was starting then. It scares me. Like I bought into this mentality (I didn't grow up yeshivish) that isn't what I thought it was. I thought it was about valuing Torah over materialism, and yes, I always knew there were materialistic yeshivish people out there...but the fact that this is "standard" seems to show something about this society that I never believed was really true across the board.

To the previous poster, I'm sorry if I came across as offensive. I think I'm feeling emotional about this because it feels like I've signed up for something that I didn't intend to sign up for. I've been trying to raise my kids with the ideals that I think "yeshivish" means, which is that Torah trumps everything in this world. I can't imagine how one of them would respond if their new spouse was resentful because their parents didn't drop thousands of dollars to buy them diamonds and silver and gold. Or even a tehillim, siddur, set of machzorim when I'm assuming they already have at least a siddur and tehillim -- and can't they daven just fine out of those? It just seems to be that the priorities are misplaced...and I'm struggling to see myself fitting into this world.

I'm being totally honest here, and not posting amother.

Living in Lakewood, I know a few people who live the Kollel ideal that you describe. A few. Really not so many. I don't think it's the masses of Kollel people that live this ideal. And I'm married for close to 25 years, and it wasn't the masses when I got married either.

There are the people who live quite lavishly (supported generously from both sides) but I don't think that's masses either.

The rest are a range of people who live a basic community standard, simply but not as much as you describe. They may expect certain basic standards in return. I would say that most girls who marry boys who will learn in Kollel will expect a basic diamond ring, perhaps a simple bracelet, and leichter. They probably want a nice sheitel, though that isn't expected from the boy's side. Some have mentioned cars, but I don't think that's a given either, and my own experience is that most boys and girls come into the marriage with their own, the exception being those that get married very young. I don't think fancy machzorim, siddur, tehillim are a given either. And for sure not birthday presents and other such.

I guess I don't feel a girl should be castigated for not living the Kollel ideal to the extent that you describe. I think that the girls take so much upon themselves to support even what's considered basic.

I think if you want the ideal, it exists, and as you wrote, you can be picky and look for that (as long as your son is living up to that ideal as well and is ready for the frugal lifestyle. I have come across boys from very simple, ideal families who really want girls who will live on a higher standard. Some boys found it hard to live that and want something different.) It won't be the majority of girls. You will want to do careful checking into the girl, you don't want to consider a girl whose standards/expectations don't match yours, that could be cause for great disappointment all around.

amother

Mint

Thu, Jun 16 2022, 10:45 pm

I’m yeshivish, supporting a husband in kollel for over ten years. I live very simply now, no support from parents, and I’m pretty “low maintenance”. Despite that, I would have been hurt not to get the standard kallah gifts UNLESS my in-laws sat me down and explained they were on a budget and asked me which gifts I’d prefer. (I would probably have chosen to save with a lab grown diamond ring and used the money toward leichter, for example).
BUT, I absolutely agree that kallah’s gifts are the last thing that should be scrimped upon. No connection to their future of living simply in kollel. A girl going through the shidduchim process feels demeaned and unwanted, always second guessing herself if the boy will like her etc, will she ever get married. When she finally gets engaged, the in-laws should make her feel desirable and welcome, with gifts and words.
My aunt got very basic gifts from her in-laws, who spent money on other things but just didn’t know better. Thirty years later, she is still resentful not to have had the standard gifts every one else got. She splurged on her daughter in law’s gifts, though she had no money, and made the most basic aufruf possible. It was important to her that the new dil, about to build a relationship with her son, feel as happy as possible.

amother

Burgundy

Fri, Jun 17 2022, 1:29 am

amother [ Mint ] wrote:

If everyone has to have the standard then it's a big shame so much has become standard.

The irony is that a gift that's mandated will not make you feel loved but not getting it will make you feel unloved. How did we get to this absurdity?

DVOM

Fri, Jun 17 2022, 4:56 am

These wedding and newlywed finance posts are terrifying.

I can't wrap my head around these numbers. I don't understand these expectations. They make no sense to me. You all have 10-20 THOUSAND dollars per child to spend on GIFTS? Who makes that kind of money? My future daughters in law might look at my sending a younger child to camp or serving pot roast on shabbos and decide I don't love them, because that money should rightfully have been spent on bigger and better diamonds for her?

When I got married 14 years ago, my parents bought me a wig and a hat fall, rented me a gorgeous gown, and made me a wedding. They chipped in with me to buy a bedroom set. My grandfather bought me a bookcase. My husband bought me a skinny gold bracelet with some diamond chips that he later told me cost 800$. I nearly passed out from joy when he gave it to me. My in laws bought me a diamond ring that cost 2000$, a bit less than a carot in a plain gold setting. My in laws paid for beautiful brass and enamel candlesticks that guests at my home still comments on, 400$. I remember a big bouquet of sunflowers at my engagement party that were from my in laws. I had told my then-fiance that I love sunflowers. I was very touched that they remembered. Not sure the cost. They bought me a necklace of small pink and purple pearls that my husband gave me at the wedding. My husband and I pooled our savings to buy a table and chairs, a recliner, and all the other stuff we needed to set up house. We both already owned cars.

Let's say in laws spent 3,000$ on gifts for me? Is that not enough love? When did we jot down a dollar value and a gift checklist and title it: Now I Know My In Laws Love Me? When did getting married become a competitive sport, the winner being the girl who's in laws can get the biggest diamonds? If those are the rules of the game, we've already lost. No way my husband and I could compete in those races.

DVOM

Fri, Jun 17 2022, 5:28 am

DVOM wrote:

I'm thinking we might do well to take out an imamother add when the time comes:

Available: one very kind, hard-working, funny, sweet, handsome young man available to marry. Y.M. has grown up in hoe where parents respect and love each other. Will wash dishes and tenderly take care of babies, and cook dinner, and ask thoughtful, genuinely curious questions about your day, and say 'wow, you look beautiful!' when your wearing your last pair of clean pajamas(We think he's a catch, and he's only 11). WARNING: MANY MANY DIAMONDS NOT INCLUDED! Young man's folks have never had the cash for enormous gifts and probably never will. Will not submit their spending habits for your review and critique. Will provide love via empathy, acceptance, interest and warmth. If this is not your favorite flavor of love, please do not submit application! We hear there are many enormous diamonds and gold and even cars to be had for the taking. No hard feelings if you choose to submit your application elsewhere!

amother

Chestnut

Fri, Jun 17 2022, 5:34 am

amother [ Mint ] wrote:

So the in-laws bought "basic" gifts. Just a basic diamond, a basic bracelet, basic candlesticks. Probably at least $2,000 worth of "basic" gifts. In addition to paying a nice chunk of a nice wedding (that may have been more than just basic).

It is clear that they didn't do it because they didn't value new DIL, but because they "didn't know better" (=had different priorities?).

And 30 years later, she is still resentful.

Future MILs of the world, we are DOOMED.

imaima

Fri, Jun 17 2022, 6:50 am

I am surprised that noone has talked about it, but some posters touched upon it.

Judaism is a very traditional culture and it functions like traditional cultures.

Girls are married off young and are most probably virgins. They are about to dedicate their whole life to continuing their husband’s family. They are about to birth their heirs and support their son in learning, and provide them all sorts of services.

To be very crude, if a young girl decided to lose her virginity for money, she would have gotten a couple of thousands… so how come you won’t fargin this much to your kallah?

Marriage is a huge commitment and investment for the girl. If it goes bad, she is the one who will be in a major disadvantage. If a boy divorces, there more new candidates lining up for him than for her. She remains in a vulnerable position throughout her marriage.

Jewish marriage is not a marriage of „equals“ in this sense.

In the Torah there are not only gifts brought for Rivka. There is also a purchase of Ramat haMachpela for a way too high price, for an already deceased wife. Because the more we invest into someone, the more we love them.

ETA: There is also a lack of affection between chatan and kalla that is usually already very developed when secular people decide to marry. And even then the groom often rains presents on the bride to honor her commitment.

I also think that the culture of mutual gift-giving generates good spirit between both parties. If both sides decide to forego presents they will have saved the money but lost s chance to foster a relationship between the two families necessary to help a solid ground fpr the marriage