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Torah learning protects against superfluous internet use
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amother




OP
 

Post Wed, Jun 22 2022, 2:07 pm
PinkFridge wrote:
Sorry. I said I sometimes think. And I think it's some women, not all. I really don't believe it's conditioning, that if I'd only got the same mishna and gemara prep that I'd want to learn.

I'm sorry. I really do know that many women DO have that drive.

Why bring up mishna and gemara now? Your initial post about women not being wired was in response to my OP, which mentioned Chumash and Navi, as well as halachic works.
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amother




Bronze
 

Post Wed, Jun 22 2022, 2:17 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
Agreed. But Torah learning specifically is recognized to have protective effects against one's yetzer hara, generally be beneficial to a Jew, and improve one's character in unique ways.

Exactly. Barasi yetzer hara, barasi Torah tavlin. It's the 'antidote' so to speak. It's not just spend time engaged in one so you don't have time to be busy with the other. The more one connects him or herself to Torah, the less connected s/he will be to the yetzer hara.
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PinkFridge




 
 
 
 

Post Wed, Jun 22 2022, 2:40 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
Why bring up mishna and gemara now? Your initial post about women not being wired was in response to my OP, which mentioned Chumash and Navi, as well as halachic works.


I'm not going back to parse. Sorry that I made the jump.
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amother




Midnight
 

Post Wed, Jun 22 2022, 3:51 pm
I enjoy the courses at Livnos.com. The courses are intellectual and text-based. Cover many topics - including Chumash and Nach. For more bais yaakov type audience.
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amother




Narcissus
 

Post Wed, Jun 22 2022, 5:11 pm
I don't understand the problem. You want to learn? Good, go learn.

I have several friends who decided they wanted to learn. They're all moms of little kids (and some of preteens or young teens). So if someone wants to have a learning group at their house that Shabbos, they spend some time beforehand to find a source that they like, or to find one that they remember learning years ago, and they photocopy it. Then they send out an email saying "Anyone want to learn at my house at 4 pm on Shabbos afternoon this week?" And whoever can come, comes. We sit and learn together, taking turns reading, discussing it as a group...

If you have a problem, be the solution.

(Now granted, at this point in my life I'm busy enough that I haven't hosted even once, and I only attend sometimes. Some people do prioritize it, and they feel it's really important to their avodas Hashem. I mainly get my Torah through torahanytime and other shiurim at this point, and I'm 100% fine with that.)
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PinkFridge




 
 
 
 

Post Wed, Jun 22 2022, 5:19 pm
amother [ Narcissus ] wrote:
I don't understand the problem. You want to learn? Good, go learn.

I have several friends who decided they wanted to learn. They're all moms of little kids (and some of preteens or young teens). So if someone wants to have a learning group at their house that Shabbos, they spend some time beforehand to find a source that they like, or to find one that they remember learning years ago, and they photocopy it. Then they send out an email saying "Anyone want to learn at my house at 4 pm on Shabbos afternoon this week?" And whoever can come, comes. We sit and learn together, taking turns reading, discussing it as a group...

If you have a problem, be the solution.

(Now granted, at this point in my life I'm busy enough that I haven't hosted even once, and I only attend sometimes. Some people do prioritize it, and they feel it's really important to their avodas Hashem. I mainly get my Torah through torahanytime and other shiurim at this point, and I'm 100% fine with that.)


And these Shabbos groups are wonderful. But I respect women needing more - maybe a one on one deep dive into a text with primary resources, more than once a week.
We women are pretty amazing. We can go for years without davening formally, barely, and learning too for that matter. And we can do this and grow tremendously spiritually in a way that men couldn't. But I support all options being out there.
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salt




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Jun 23 2022, 4:18 am
mushkamothers wrote:
You know what else protects. Having real life fulfilling relationships.

But if a woman is at work the whole day, runs home to get the kids, does supper and bedtime and her husband comes home after either work or learning and goes to Maariv and his chavrusa... when is a woman supposed to have a life? Or even speak to her husband who's busy learning Torah all day?

Or let's say she's a stay at home mom bc it doesn't make financial sense to put 3 babies into a playgroup.

Maybe we change systemic issues instead of blaming the women's stupidity for everything.


Well then she wouldn't have time to be on her phone or on social media either, so these super busy run down mothers wouldn't haven't the issue that OP is talking about.
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amother




Silver
 

Post Thu, Jun 23 2022, 7:21 am
amother [ OP ] wrote:
R' Lopiansky recently wrote in Mishpacha:

Quote:
in frum circles, men have regular access to the greatest escape from the clutches of social media — through the pursuit of limud haTorah. Learning Torah is a mitzvah that is all-encompassing. It stimulates the intellect and overwhelms the emotions. It fills so many voids. Women, by and large, don’t have that escape built into their daily lives, and this leaves them more vulnerable to the illusory pull of social media.


Similarly, R' Ribner has commented regarding the issue of smartphone use by women that "there is nothing really inspiring the nashim to the madreigas haTorah that the men are holding by."

The ability of Torah learning to counteract the pull of social media and internet is clearly recognized by prominent rabbonim, but there appears to be no interest in the seemingly logical next step of offering this remedy in some form to women.* Even just Chumash or Navi for a few hours a week. Maybe Shulchan Aruch or the Mishneh Torah. Regularly working through and discussing texts, with scheduling flexibility and maybe virtual offerings to make it more workable.

*While there is a "new initiative to connect ladies and girls with Limud HaTorah on a personal level" out of Lakewood, it does not involve the ladies actually doing any learning. They are just being asked to give money to men learning, see. https://www.shela-he.org/


I said this last night, while listening to the Internet gathering, that there needs to be something for women TO DO - not just things NOT TO DO. It’s very hard to be inspired to continually not do things without having anything meaningful to do instead.

Somehow, while the greatest thing a man can do is learn Torah, which is meaningful, interesting and endless - the greatest thing a woman can do is disappear (I.e. be neither seen nor heard). Completely agree with R’ Lopiansky. If women had meaningful, interesting, all-encompassing things to do, there would be much less time for social media and the like. (And before anyone says it - not everyone finds cooking, housekeeping, or entertaining toddlers stimulating or fulfilling that same way.)
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Aurora




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Jun 23 2022, 7:30 am
Sarah Schenirer understood it. The Bais Yaakovs she started seem very different to the ones we have now. I wonder if we need something more like that today?
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mitzva




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Jun 23 2022, 4:58 pm
amother [ Silver ] wrote:
I said this last night, while listening to the Internet gathering, that there needs to be something for women TO DO - not just things NOT TO DO. It’s very hard to be inspired to continually not do things without having anything meaningful to do instead.

Somehow, while the greatest thing a man can do is learn Torah, which is meaningful, interesting and endless - the greatest thing a woman can do is disappear (I.e. be neither seen nor heard). Completely agree with R’ Lopiansky. If women had meaningful, interesting, all-encompassing things to do, there would be much less time for social media and the like. (And before anyone says it - not everyone finds cooking, housekeeping, or entertaining toddlers stimulating or fulfilling that same way.)


and neither does every man find learning is for them.
some are kovea itim latorah and were born for a different tafkid than learning.
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imorethanamother




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Jun 23 2022, 7:05 pm
mitzva wrote:
and neither does every man find learning is for them.
some are kovea itim latorah and were born for a different tafkid than learning.


That’s very true. I would argue that the reason why so many boys/teens are “at risk” is because we make their yiddishkeit dependent on whether they’re smart and can learn a piece of Gemara.

Women are allowed to find different paths. To be the creative. To be the motherly nurturer. To be the intellectual. And we don’t assign any of them a moral judgement on what type they are. But for men, if they don’t learn, they’re “bad.”

The downside to all this freedom for women is that nobody tries super hard to corral them into learning on a daily basis.
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mitzva




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Jun 23 2022, 7:33 pm
imorethanamother wrote:
That’s very true. I would argue that the reason why so many boys/teens are “at risk” is because we make their yiddishkeit dependent on whether they’re smart and can learn a piece of Gemara.

Women are allowed to find different paths. To be the creative. To be the motherly nurturer. To be the intellectual. And we don’t assign any of them a moral judgement on what type they are. But for men, if they don’t learn, they’re “bad.”

The downside to all this freedom for women is that nobody tries super hard to corral them into learning on a daily basis.


no. no. no.
I learn every day.
Right now I am learning Horeb by Rabbi Samson Rafael Hirsh.
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amother




Silver
 

Post Thu, Jun 23 2022, 8:25 pm
imorethanamother wrote:
That’s very true. I would argue that the reason why so many boys/teens are “at risk” is because we make their yiddishkeit dependent on whether they’re smart and can learn a piece of Gemara.

Women are allowed to find different paths. To be the creative. To be the motherly nurturer. To be the intellectual. And we don’t assign any of them a moral judgement on what type they are. But for men, if they don’t learn, they’re “bad.”

The downside to all this freedom for women is that nobody tries super hard to corral them into learning on a daily basis.


I don’t see that women are allowed to find different paths. Being intellectual is not esteemed in a woman. Nor is having a stimulating career (unless maybe you can explain that it’s to support your husband’s learning, and even then it may be criticized). Look at all the frum women’s magazines and see what’s valued and glorified - homemaking!!! (Cooking, tablescapes, home decorating, etc.) What path in ruchniyus is open and encouraged for women?
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BrisketBoss




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Jun 23 2022, 8:27 pm
amother [ Silver ] wrote:
I don’t see that women are allowed to find different paths. Being intellectual is not esteemed in a woman. Nor is having a stimulating career (unless maybe you can explain that it’s to support your husband’s learning, and even then it may be criticized). Look at all the frum women’s magazines and see what’s valued and glorified - homemaking!!! (Cooking, tablescapes, home decorating, etc.) What path in ruchniyus is open and encouraged for women?


Listening to fluffy speeches of course!

(Some women like fluff and that's ok.)
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Not_in_my_town




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Jun 23 2022, 8:52 pm
amother [ Silver ] wrote:
I don’t see that women are allowed to find different paths. Being intellectual is not esteemed in a woman. Nor is having a stimulating career (unless maybe you can explain that it’s to support your husband’s learning, and even then it may be criticized). Look at all the frum women’s magazines and see what’s valued and glorified - homemaking!!! (Cooking, tablescapes, home decorating, etc.) What path in ruchniyus is open and encouraged for women?


I disagree. I very specifically write Torah-based research articles and I've received a lot of support from the community. One yeshiva has even incorporated one of my articles into their curriculum for bochurim. The Rosh Yeshiva, himself, wrote me a letter praising that article and telling me he has been searching for something of its caliber for years.

There are also many women who teach other women. That's a path in ruchniyus.

Yes, there are many women who interested in more fluffy articles, but that is because that is their personalities. And that's fine. I prefer more in-depth, stimulating articles. To each their own.
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BrisketBoss




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Jun 23 2022, 8:53 pm
Not_in_my_town wrote:
I disagree. I very specifically write Torah-based research articles and I've received a lot of support from the community. One yeshiva has even incorporated one of my articles into their curriculum for bochurim. The Rosh Yeshiva, himself, wrote me a letter praising that article and telling me he has been searching for something of its caliber for years.


Very cool!
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Not_in_my_town




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Jun 23 2022, 8:53 pm
BrisketBoss wrote:
Very cool!


Thanks. I agree. Smile
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PinkFridge




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Jun 23 2022, 9:10 pm
mitzva wrote:
and neither does every man find learning is for them.
some are kovea itim latorah and were born for a different tafkid than learning.


Are you saying they're kovea itim in the sense that they don't have the zitsfleish to learn?
Because kovea itim can be pretty impressive.
I think that every man can find some regular connection to Torah, even if it's "lighter."
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PinkFridge




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Jun 23 2022, 9:12 pm
imorethanamother wrote:
That’s very true. I would argue that the reason why so many boys/teens are “at risk” is because we make their yiddishkeit dependent on whether they’re smart and can learn a piece of Gemara.

Women are allowed to find different paths. To be the creative. To be the motherly nurturer. To be the intellectual. And we don’t assign any of them a moral judgement on what type they are. But for men, if they don’t learn, they’re “bad.”

The downside to all this freedom for women is that nobody tries super hard to corral them into learning on a daily basis.


No one should feel disenfranchised. But I think it's good if these boys who can't learn that piece of Gemara, or don't have the zitsfleish still feel some way to positively connect to Torah and learning.
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PinkFridge




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Jun 23 2022, 9:14 pm
BrisketBoss wrote:
Very cool!


I second that.
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