Being so into clothing

amother

Diamond

Thu, Jun 23 2022, 9:09 pm

amother [ Honey ] wrote:

I live in Israel and am kind of shocked at how people do not respect a simcha!

They literally come dressed so sloppy, in a snood, dirty clothes.

I have spoken to my Israeli relatives who married off and they are bothered by this attitude.

Many Israelis have no sense of fashion which is fine. They have no idea about European brands with superior cut and quality. They buy whatever is in the stores with no idea of anything. They are still wearing sequins and beads on shabbos, they still wear shiny shabbos clothes on dates...

They are a western country but are clueless about fashion.

Sounds like I need to make Aliyah quicker than originally planned.

ImmaBubby

Thu, Jun 23 2022, 9:28 pm

I always tried to dress my kids and myself respectably and thought I did a pretty decent job- while being most grateful that we lived OOT.
I have 2 issues:
1) Being judged, either way. If my dress meets your qualifications, great- but please realize that there’s way more to me than the chitzonius. This happens to be a big turn-off for thinking, possibly fashion- challenged teens. If I don’t meet your criteria, please don’t write me off as not having it together. Perhaps I have some other redeeming qualities.
2) what message are we passing on to our younger kids who might have more bekius in designers than in gedolim?

amother

Springgreen

Fri, Jun 24 2022, 12:23 am

lamplighter wrote:

I am also weirded out when rebetzin types are into materialism and chitzonius. I don't essentially believe you can koch in both. There's an expression in chabad, In gashmius we look to be like those who have less than us and in ruchnius we look to be like those who have more than us.
The standardization of high fashion in frum society is not a good thing. And definitely this idea that the fashionable have it together and anyone who isn't fashionable is less than isnt very "frum" either.

That’s so strange. For me it’s an inspiration. An example of a true bas melech who dresses beautifully and tznuisly and presents herself well.

amother

Cyan

Fri, Jun 24 2022, 2:04 am

I am not really going to comment on the main discussion of this thread.
However I am really surprised by some of the misconceptions about Israel. The Israel that I live in is comprised of so many different groups and communities that it is really impossible to make sweeping generalisations about anything including interest in clothing, consumerism/ materialism and frumkeit.
The same, I suspect, could be said of just about anywhere in the world.

amother

Pearl

Fri, Jun 24 2022, 2:05 am

amother [ Springgreen ] wrote:

That’s so strange. For me it’s an inspiration. An example of a true bas melech who dresses beautifully and tznuisly and presents herself well.

To me, being a bat melech always meant behaving in a refined, dignified manner and being aware that Am Yisrael is special because of Hashem and one needs to live up to that. I never thought it had anything to do with fashion or how one dresses, asides from obviously keeping tzniut.

imaima

Fri, Jun 24 2022, 2:35 am

amother [ Springgreen ] wrote:

That’s so strange. For me it’s an inspiration. An example of a true bas melech who dresses beautifully and tznuisly and presents herself well.

But it has nothing to do with fashion.
The quality, the cut, tzniyus, craftsmanship -yes

Fashionability of clothes cannot define a bas melech in my eyes since such a universal concept cannot be defined by something that lasts a season

amother

Purple

Fri, Jun 24 2022, 2:45 am

amother [ Honey ] wrote:

Oh please
You lost me at European brands.
And I live in Europe

I agree with not coming to weddings underdressed

But there is nothing wrong with wearing clean and festive last season clothes.

amother

Springgreen

Fri, Jun 24 2022, 3:25 am

amother [ Pearl ] wrote:

A daughter of the queen should look beautiful and refined. That’s what I was always taught.

DrMom

Fri, Jun 24 2022, 4:36 am

mitzva wrote:

DrMom wrote:

It's a Western county in that we have access to many things (if they don't sell it here, we can always get it on Amazon), but the pressure to dress to the nines every day is definitely not a thing in many Israeli communities.

I am not sure if you live in a bubble or not.
My nieces, literally hundreds of them, chasidish and litvish and modern dress up. They act like typical young women who are not literally just surviving from hand to mouth.
they know styles
they know designers
all the new frum communities have designer chain stores.
give me a break.

I found your answer to be puzzlingly hostile.

Anyhow: No, I don't live in a bubble. I do, however, actually live in E"Y, and have so for well over a decade (after living in the US as well), live in a mixed community, work in a mostly secular environment. I have relatives in Israel from many different religious (and not so religious) Jewish communities and have attended their simchas and gone to their homes.

On the whole, things are more casual here, and a greater variety of styles and levels of formality are tolerated/expected. There is in general also less emphasis on specific brands being "in" or "out."

Yes, there are malls and stores here (I don't know what you mean by "designer chain stores"). You can buy some nice things -- but on the whole, there is less pressure to look fashionable all the time. My kids (girls included) are not very preoccupied with hair and fashion and I don't consider them "abnormal."

Also, I'd imagine that fashion-obsessed people who move here from the fashion-obsessed US communities and settle en masse in specific cities import their gashmius with them into their new community.

BTW, what does "surviving from hand to mouth" have to do with anything? People can be well off but not fashion-obsessed. These are two different things.

4g01o

Fri, Jun 24 2022, 5:04 am

DrMom wrote:

Exactly some people just don't care to spend time on clothing. Even if they have the money, they can't be bothered, are too busy etc. I admire people like this. I wish I could be like this, I'd have more money lol but I love dressing my kids, myself etc. I feel so good about myself when I get a nice new dress that looks flattering etc.

shabbatiscoming

Fri, Jun 24 2022, 5:05 am

amother [ Yellow ] wrote:

I Wonder where you love? I live in oot uSA and when I visit my in laws with my kids every so often there is sooo much pressure I always get back on the plane and say bh I live where I live
There is definitely pressure in Israel...ramat bet shemeah ramat eshkol certain parts of yerushalm

Yes, in the charedi communities, or the anglo charedi communities that pressure is there.
I dont know where the poster who said it, lives, but I know in the majority of dati leumi communities, the pressure is either MUCH MMUCH less or non existent at all.

shabbatiscoming

Fri, Jun 24 2022, 5:18 am

amother [ Honey ] wrote:

OK, dirty clothing is one thing. But other than that, I think people coming to smachot, in any clothing, is showing that the way one dresses has no affect on the simch part of the simcha. People come to smachot to help the simcha be leibadick and to show they care. Wearing jeans or a snood does not mean they are not respecting a simcha.
Think back to how in the olden days, people didnt wear a gown or anything special to a simcha. They wore what they had.
And who cares about clothing with superior cuts and quality? If thats what you find important then on a simcha invitation put it in there that one must come in shabbat clothing. Its just not important to everyone.
And who cares if they are wearing sequins or shiny things on dates. Who made you the fashion queen? PEople wear what they want to wear. There are no laws in fashion.
I find these attitudes very very off putting.

Reality

Fri, Jun 24 2022, 5:36 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

I have to agree with this 100%. As a new olah with teenagers I have to say the lack of obsession over clothes is a breath of fresh air. It doesn't mean they don't dress nicely and want to look pretty. It means they aren't always buying new clothes because their friends "saw" their outfit already!! They are so much happier with what they have. They also barely wear any makeup. If we were back in the US, most girls their age are wearing a full face of makeup every shabbos. Now they wear a little mascara if they remember to put on before shabbos!

amother

NeonBlue

Fri, Jun 24 2022, 6:12 am

Some people have class. They spend more than average on good quality, elegant clothing (hopefully according to their means) and they will keep the clothing for a while too . They should not be judged just because others don't have the same value.

But it's hard to understand why some people run after cheap fashion & spend so much money on items which will last a season. The clothing are often poor quality and don't fit well. It gets thrown out very soon.

But spending on elegant, slow fashion has always been a thing.

amother

Butterscotch

Fri, Jun 24 2022, 8:54 am

amother [ NeonBlue ] wrote:

I don't think spending more than 'average on good, quality elegant clothing' defines class. To be perfectly honest, it's an excuse people give themselves to rationalize their actions. You can have class perfectly well without doing that.

Also, how on earth is that a value?