Help me troubleshoot this? Get kids to do stuff?

#BestBubby

Sun, Jun 26 2022, 6:32 am

amother [ Oxfordblue ] wrote:

You aren't the judge and jury here. No one has to prove themselves to you.
Yelling at children over small things is uncalled for. Repeat that many times throughout their childhood and then go wonder why they don't feel safe with that parent.

So YOU get to be " judge and jury" that all parents who are cut off are justified but no one is allowed to judge the Parent-Abusers???

That's not how it works, Dear.

And the children feel perfectly safe ignoring their parents week after week.

And adults are perfectly safe and don't have to listen to parental yelling WITHOUT having to cut ties.

If a parent yells at adult, the adult can just say "good by" and hang up phone or leave the house. Don't have to cut ties to not listen to yelling. Just make boundaries.

amother

Oxfordblue

Sun, Jun 26 2022, 6:45 am

#BestBubby wrote:

I am not the one who brings this topic into every thread. Nor do I ever pretend to make myself the expert in parental alienation.

Big people who yell often make little people feel unsafe. When little people feel unsafe they shut down, flee, and lose trust long term.

You don't have to like it or agree with it but it is a fact of life.

#BestBubby

Sun, Jun 26 2022, 6:57 am

amother [ Oxfordblue ] wrote:

Hello, YOU are the one who raised the topic of this case justifies cutting off a parent.

Again proving my point that the Parent-Cut-Offers make FALSE ACCUSATIONS.

And the children feel perfectly safe to disobey their parents week after week. Obviously not intimidated by parental yelling which they SAFELY IGNORE.

amother

Sun, Jun 26 2022, 11:52 am

So basically what I'm hearing is that with one exception the consensus is that it's reasonable for kids this age to still need a LOT of my involvement to follow a routine. Which is a little disappointing to me because I'd hoped they would start learning more responsibilty and independence. Do they just wake up at 12 or 13 and suddenly don't need nagging anymore?!

We had a first/then but I was hoping they would be able to transition to independence by now. Instead I come downstairs and find them playing in their pajamas and I'm like "the rule in this family for years already has been first get dressed, THEN play! How is this happening?!" Also to all the people talking about training them in to set the table - they've been helping since they were in preschool! They know exactly how to do it. The issue is that after YEARS of doing it together or with coaching or with reminders I would like to be able to expect them to do it on their own.

I don't think DH has trauma. I think he just believes very strongly that kids of that age should not be lolling around playing while everyone else worked hard to pitch in. I strongly agree but without the yelling. He works very hard long hours as a provider and also contributes to the housework and when he gives these kids ONE easy job and they don't do it, he flips. It's not like they're 5 years old, we're talking about a pair of almost 11 year olds assisted by 8. Of course he needs to stop the yelling but I can't make that happen and I don't think therapy will either. Structuring our parenting better to fix the problem should help though.

And I sort of agree with Best Bubby especially on one point - if they didn't feel safe with the yelling, then wouldn't they make sure to do the thing the next week so they don't get yelled at? That's what happened to me. I worry about turning Shabbos into a yelling fest so I pulled myself together even though I wasn't feeling well and made a point of telling the kids to get it done before DH got home. So obviously they feel safe enough to ignore the issue. I still don't think it's ok but it seems that threatened is not what they're feeling.

I'm going to try some of your suggestions on how to make it a more pleasant experience. I'm just also going to feel resentful while doing it because I feel like after all these years they should be able to handle it on their own. And also DH's attitude rubbed off on me and I feel like I shouldn't have to also be on top of table setting when I already did everything else for Shabbos. I don't think it's unreasonable or parentifying to expect kids to set the table for the family when everthing else is served to them on a silver platter. I don't want to start withholding treats but maybe that's what I need to do.

BrisketBoss

Sun, Jun 26 2022, 12:04 pm

"f they didn't feel safe with the yelling, then wouldn't they make sure to do the thing the next week so they don't get yelled at?" No. Yelling is like spanking in that you can do it over and over again, and, well--why are you doing it over and over again? Obviously it doesn't work. Like any punitive measure, it is only effective short term. Maybe for you personally, this wouldn't be true. But it is true for many children. Sure they don't like being yelled at but you have not addressed the actual reason behind the behavior. There's a reason and it's still there.

"Do they just wake up at 12 or 13 and suddenly don't need nagging anymore?!" Nagging doesn't work ever, and no, there's no magic age, which is why you have to start the way you mean to continue. It's good that you had them helping since preschool age but sometimes it doesn't translate. It seems to work in some other cultures, which is partly because they have the benefit of the surrounding culture, which we sadly do not. But some things they do or that are helpful: Actively invite young children's help, let them help even when it makes a lot more work for you, ask less often as they get older and they begin to see for themselves what needs to be done and do it. Have that be your culture--see a need, fill a need. We have an inborn instinct to belong through usefulness. Don't assign regular chores. Model graciousness and do whatever the child decides not to do, by yourself--let them have autonomy. This will teach them to be gracious too. And so on.

amother

Oxfordblue

Sun, Jun 26 2022, 12:15 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

No at age 12/13 they refuse to do it and have their own plans for the day.
This attitude is not getting you very far.

imaima

Sun, Jun 26 2022, 12:20 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

The fact that you have described is that yelling postfactum is not working.

I have kids this age and I cannot rely on them.
I can ask and see to it that they follow through (and not walk away), but I don’t just expect it to happen.

amother

Sun, Jun 26 2022, 1:14 pm

I think I forgot to mention in the OP that I really already did almost everything suggested here. The real question is how and when to transition them to being more independent. For instance, after years of assisting and being prompted/coached by mommy, you'd think that the week mommy is sick they would think to do it themselves.

They have plenty of role modeling, lots of positive feedback, they've come along to choose pretty shabbos napkins, had fun setting the table in fancy ways, more positive feedback, we did all that. And yet when they're asked to do it on their own... nada. They have adult role models as well as teenage siblings who are very helpful (the teens help with cooking and cleaning that are above the level of the younger kids). Everyone, both adults, teens, and youngers, help with serving/clearing. The younger kids usually need to be asked to help with that too. So much for picking up on a spirit of teamwork.

amother

Maple

Sun, Jun 26 2022, 1:20 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

I think the piece you're missing here is that the time of table setting is NOT during a helpful time. It's not like Erev Shabbos everyone is rushing around helping and they're lounging on the couch.

It's Shabbos morning. Mommy is sleeping. Kids roll out of bed, snack on something and play. The day seems very relaxed and slow. All of a sudden, Mommy jumps up, it's late, nobody's dressed, Tatty's home, the table's not set.

Kids don't all have internal clocks, and it sounds like your 11yo definitely does not. So he/she is not going to notice, "Oh! Tatty will be home in a half hour! Let's set the table now!"

When they are 12-13, they might start noticing, "Oh, everyone is helping clear the table, I guess we should join in." But it is normal for A LOT of ages, even for adults, to not notice the passage of time on a routineless day.

imaima

Sun, Jun 26 2022, 1:23 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

I think the question is: do YOU transition them?
Or do they transition themselves?

I feel like you are waiting for a magical switch to change them into robots who set the table by some arbitrary time.
Will this moment arrive?
I don’t believe there will be a certain day when this happens.
Sometimes I am lazy and my table is not set by the time my dh comes home. I am in my 30-s with a degree and no adhd. But sometimes I don’t have the friggin table set by 11.
You know what is the difference? Noone will yell at me. We just set the table together. Whoever is available does it and noone makes a big deal out of it.

So my solution for you is to change your expectations and stop the yelling

amother

Clear

Sun, Jun 26 2022, 1:26 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

I'm going to come straight out and admit I'm not smart at this parenting thing. I think I'm a good parent because I take care of the kids and give them lots of love and all that, but when it comes to "what do I do in this situation" I'm not the one with the good ideas. So here's something that I bet is pretty standard and I just don't know how to solve it.

Here's the scenario:
DH has a thing with having the table set when he comes home from shul on Shabbos. I know it's a nice thing and even an expectation, but for some reason it's more than that to him, if it's not done he goes crazy. It's the younger kids' job to set the table (ages 8-10) - the older kids have chores related to shopping, cooking, sometimes childcare, and the younger kids are supposed to set the table. If DH comes home and it's not done, he throws a fit about how he/we work hard preparing Shabbos and all we ask of them is the table set and it's just a real trigger.

The kids are basically willing to do their job and set the table, but they need someone to be on top of them telling them to do it. DH's perspective is that it's their job every single week and they've seen how upset he is when it isn't done so they should know by now to do it without being told each time. I agree in theory but yet week after week they just don't learn.

So anyway what usually happens is that I go instruct them to do it before DH gets home every week. They always need to be instructed. I'm also annoyed when I come get them and it could be after 11:00 and they're just playing and haven't done their one job yet. Usually still in pajamas, too. They know perfectly well how to tell time, they just don't think to do it.

A couple of weeks ago I wasn't feeling well so I slept in on Shabbos morning - two weeks in a row. Sure enough, the table wasn't set, DH came home close to noon to several kids just starting to decide to get dressed, and he threw a fit. I was upset because I felt like I was being punished along with the older kids because our atmosphere is being spoiled by all the yelling in middle of Shabbos when we weren't the ones who slacked off. So this week I went back to telling the kids to do it (even after two weeks in a row of being yelled at for not doing it, they still didn't do it until I came and told them!) but I felt more resentful than ever. I felt like I was put into this position where I need to nag them otherwise I'm going to be subjected to a crabby DH and an unpleasant Shabbos.

DH's only strategy is yelling and obviously that isn't working at all. I'm stumped because if someone were yelling at me like that I think it would make me remember to shape up next time. Is it not realistic to expect kids to get up, get dressed, and do something functional before playing and hanging out?

BTW same thing happens Friday night, it's just a little less often forgotten because they're already up and ready for shabbos, unlike the morning when they hang out and play or read in their bedrooms instead of getting up.

There are other things also that I feel like I tell them a zillion times and even sometimes get really upset about and they still never ever remember it on their own. One kid has started a habit of leaving clothes on the floor. I don't know how she even started this habit! How many times am I going to yell at her to pick up her clothes before she figures it out?

It can't just be my kids but I don't know how to get them to do their things without making everyone miserable.

Just read this so my apologies if mentioned already.
Buy this book and put it in your bathroom.
"How to talk so kids will listen and listen so kids will talk"

amother

Sun, Jun 26 2022, 1:32 pm

amother [ Maple ] wrote:

I do think that's the crux of the problem but they don't need to notice the passage of time if they do it right away! If they start playing then of course they won't know to stop playing and start being productive. But the policy is that when you wake up you get dressed and stuff BEFORE you start playing. True I usually wake up before them but then I spring into action. So in terms of seeing productivity to join, they are slooowly pulling on their clothes while I've already set up all the food on the blech, started cutting up a salad, fully dressed.