Bringing along boys to the pool

amother

Acacia

Mon, Jun 27 2022, 8:35 am

amother [ Wandflower ] wrote:

It has nothing to do with inappropriate thoughts or sx. It has everything to do with their ability to remember and communicate what they saw. 5 is not a toddler. It is a kindergarten (primary/pre 1st/whatever you call the grade before 1st grade!) age child. They arent babies.

Oh my - how times have changed. How we have redrawn even the most sensible lines! When I was younger, little boys till age 6 always swam with their mothers. It was never even a thing not to. It wasn't even a thought not to. This was from the very chassidish through the more modern crowds. Older boys from 6+ went off grounds for day camps, so it was only the little boys who were on grounds the entire day. When everyone went swimming, so did the little boys. There were no separate hours for the 4-5 year old boys. We mothers sat in the pool all day long and we didn't create separate hours for anything (except on weekends when the men arrived).

And the boys grew up perfectly well. 4-5 year old boys seeing women in bathing suits didn't get harmed, and their psyche and minds didn't get affected. They grew into wonderful ehrliche men who are wonderful soldiers of Hashem. Nor was it apparently an halachic concern either. Generations upon generations went about this in this manner, and suddenly we now have 'sensitivities' and 'halachas' for young preschoolers swimming with the mommies.

And give me a break about those feeling uncomfortable about little boys swimming with you. For goodness sakes, they're LITTLE. In that stage, in that frame of mind, they aren't any different than little girls. Stop seeing them as something else.!

I agree with the poster who said that the extreme gender separation is causing these behaviors. It's warping our minds into creating unhealthy sensitivities around children and our bodies.

Chayalle

Mon, Jun 27 2022, 8:35 am

amother [ Ginger ] wrote:

Those are probably in communities where the women are very covered up. In my Chasidish community we are all very covered up with a swim dress so it's very different. Mother's stop bringing their boys when they feel it's not appropriate for their boys to be in the pool with other women. The women don't care. They dress appropriately. I wouldn't want little girls either to see me in a bathing suit.

This is not about tznius. This is about your own feelings about your body. There's nothing wrong with women seeing women in a bathing suit.

I've never had sons, but if I did, I wouldn't take them to a women's swim past a certain age, because I wouldn't want them to remember that when they grow up. IOW it's more about them then about me/women.

amother

Acacia

Mon, Jun 27 2022, 8:43 am

Chayalle wrote:

I agree with you that I wouldn't take boys swimming past a certain age. But that would be past 6+. They have very limited memories of earlier stages in life, and it's more the unusual that stays with them. If swimming with mothers is normal and a run of the mill action while growing up, 4-5 year old don't put much thought to it. Neither do they put much thought into what they're seeing. Some may make a nonchalant comment here and there, and if you reply equally nonchalantly they just move on. In other words, if you make something into a big deal, it becomes a big deal for them. They copy and imitate the parents reaction. The kids respond to the parents attitude.

4-5 year old boys are just little kids. They don't have deeper thoughts or interest in woman's bodies other than a fleeting curiosity. Attributing anything more to it sounds just so wrong.

mfb

Mon, Jun 27 2022, 8:59 am

amother [ Whitesmoke ] wrote:

I would be uncomfortable with any child old enough to describe what he saw and make comments. I know that there is a wide range of maturity/precociousness with 5 year olds, but in general a 5 or 6 year old is considered observant enough to be a shomer for Yichud, and it would be out of my comfort zone to be not tznius in front of them.

Actually as far as I know a boy has to be 9 years old to be a shiner for yichud.
Our rov told us until they learn Chumash which happens at around 5-6 years old.

amother

Mon, Jun 27 2022, 10:04 am

amother [ Emerald ] wrote:

Do you know why he doesn't like the pool?

He watched a Mark Rober video on what the smell of the swimming pool actually is, and ever since then he is grossed out to go swimming in a pool. But if there will be women who will feel uncomfortable with my 5 year old around, I guess he will have to go out of his comfort zone for our boys.

amother

Mimosa

Mon, Jun 27 2022, 10:24 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Oh gosh! That video killed it for me too!

Was wondering to how many people it did the same...

amother

Mimosa

Mon, Jun 27 2022, 10:33 am

The most absurd part of some posts here is that women are saying THEY would be uncomfortable if a 5 year old boy is there.

If you are the mother of the child and you are worried the child will be affected then fine I get it, it’s your child your call.

But why in heavens name would a woman be “uncomfortable” with a little 5 year old who’s mother obviously finds it ok to bring him....?????

Can you no longer see a child as a child? Are you seeing s-x wherever you go?

Take your heads out from between your legs!

Can someone explain how this is not the literal definition of “KRIM FRIM”???

amother

Mimosa

Mon, Jun 27 2022, 10:40 am

amother [ Acacia ] wrote:

Yes,

So many new ‘chumras and sensitivities’ are being added to our beautiful Torah every year that passes.

It is a dangerous path, when Judaism gets turned into extremism and gradually takes on a new form.

Maybe I should open a new thread where we can discuss all the new ‘mitzvas’ from the last few decades..

Elfrida

Mon, Jun 27 2022, 12:45 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

If he doesn't now for the five year old, then he'll have to in a few years for your seven or eight year old. That's part of being a parent.

Fox

Mon, Jun 27 2022, 1:20 pm

amother [ Mimosa ] wrote:

But why in heavens name would a woman be “uncomfortable” with a little 5 year old who’s mother obviously finds it ok to bring him....?????

Can you no longer see a child as a child? Are you seeing s-x wherever you go?

Take your heads out from between your legs!

Can someone explain how this is not the literal definition of “KRIM FRIM”???

I can answer your question.

I actually stopped swimming at my local JCC because the attached pre-school (mostly MO and JPF families) brought boys ages 3-5 into the women's locker rooms. The little boys all stared at the women who were trying to change, and some pointed and giggled. They craned their necks around to watch older women and commented, "Ew!" and giggled and poked each other.

It is not a matter of "seeing s-x"; it's a matter of children already being attuned to nudity and reacting to it.

I suppose I might feel differently if the pool setup was such that the boys weren't present when women were changing, but I'm unfamiliar with any such setups. Given all the Imamothers who complain when children stare at them, I'm surprised anyone has difficulty understanding the fact that not everyone is eager to let 5-year-olds evaluate her body.

Reality

Mon, Jun 27 2022, 1:29 pm

That's only part of the equation. I think in the past child care was assumed to be the mom's job. Nowadays, childcare is split more evenly. Why should mom swim with 3 little ones and dad gets free time.

On top of that, we all know that many little boys are wilder than little girls. The women don't want to be disturbed and splashed at in the pool. Let the men deal with it.

I really don't think this is a religious issue. As I said the MO pool I belonged to didn't allow 3 year old boys to swim with the women. I do think some women hide behind "tznius" to get things the way they want it.

amother

Mimosa

Mon, Jun 27 2022, 1:31 pm

Fox wrote:

You are still not explaining why it differs between little boys saying ewww....! and little girls saying ewww....!

If it matters to you, you are factoring in s-x.

I have yet to have had this happen to me.

Where I live kids are way better raised, not to point, stare and say comments like these. Yes even little kids!

They play with their beach balls and noodles and mostly among other toddlers or their parents.

Also many pools do have locker rooms with curtains or doors....

amother

Pistachio

Mon, Jun 27 2022, 2:07 pm

I would say 5 year old is the oldest age, tops, I'd be ok with it.

Personally I don't want anyone looking at me change/seeing me in the nude (no problem once I'm in a swim suit though), adult women included. That's why I change behind a curtain or under my clothes or just come already in a suit under my clothes, regardless of who is around. And honestly, that's what I see most women doing, even when I belonged to a non Jewish all women's gym. (It is mainly the older women who don't seem to care and will get completely naked while changing in front of others, ime. Not middle aged and younger.) So that aspect wouldn't bother me.

amother

DarkCyan

Mon, Jun 27 2022, 2:40 pm

amother [ Lemonlime ] wrote:

I agree. I don't have such big kids but:

My sister in law has 5.5 year old twins; I would be extremely uncomfortable with my nephew seeing me in a bathing suit.
Don't know why; thats just my gut reactionk. My 5 year old neice, not at all.

You don’t realize it but you have been internalizing the concept of s*xualizing women.

You should work through your feelings and try to get beyond that.

It’s sad enough that the boys and men in our society are being inculcated with this message but it’s so sad that it’s getting to us also.