Mishpacha Double Take

amother

Wandflower

Sun, Jul 31 2022, 8:54 am

And no need to glorify and idealize professionals as well as kallah teachers. Who are not all amazing. And who can make mistakes.
Yes some can be helpful.
Its this one size fits all that parents are too "biased" and need to always be kept completely out of the loop in favor of "objective" professionals.

Its not all or nothing. This is really unfair to the poor adult child as it cuts off a main part of her support. And adds further strain in keeping up appearances etc. It is different were this client centered and not a one size fits all recipe.

Such an oversimplification. And minimizing of this poor girls shock and disorientation.

amother

Mintgreen

Sun, Jul 31 2022, 9:15 am

I am still considered a "newlywed" (married two years).

I was most definitely not taught in kallah classes to not share things with my parents.

The only thing I was taught was to not talk bad about your spouse to your family, because they will never forget it.

I remember my father telling me before I got married, don't share with us when you get in a fight because while you will make up and everything will be fine we won't be able to sleep the whole night worrying about you.

I think that as a whole a girl old enough to get married should recognize signs of abuse and in that case definitely reach out. However, in this story it was very clear here that he was not being abusive but rather was struggling with his Yiddishkeit - something that was able to be worked on. Why should her parents have to know this and look down on him for the rest of his life?

Yes, I do think that the daughter should let her mother know that she is being helped. But remember, a newlywed marriage is very fragile. And a parents opinion can make it or break it.

Give this marriage a chance without involving the parents.

amother

Whitewash

Sun, Jul 31 2022, 9:35 am

amother [ Mintgreen ] wrote:

Because this struggle with yiddishkeit is something huge, it's a foundation of a home. It's not a petty fight, or something to sidestep. This is something that will determine the future of the household and can't be brushed aside. After all these years of being taught about the beauty of yiddishkeit and how to life a proper Torah life, marrying someone who has no interest at all undermines everything this girl wants and expects. It's not a simple thing - 'just to be worked on'. Will the dh really come around, or will he adopt a pretense to save the marriage only to have it resurface later in life? Who knows - this is a major crisis. It has ramifications on the entire marriage, trust and the future.

I do see both sides of the coin of including the parents here. Some parents will automatically destroy the marriage, but on the other hand sometimes it will save the child many years of heartbreak. I too am in the camp that if I had a mother to confide in, I wouldn't be living a life full of heartbreaks. So are we saving the marriage on the account of the girl's mental health and future? This is tricky balance, but it should definitely be balanced. Sometimes its important for the parents to step in. Saving a marriage should not be the ultimate goal. Saving both parties mental health & future should be the ultimate goal. Many times that includes saving the marriage, but many times it doesn't. Personally, I feel that our community values saving a marriage at all cost, with those costs including wellbeing and happiness.

amother

Mintgreen

Sun, Jul 31 2022, 9:44 am

amother [ Whitewash ] wrote:

But she's getting the help she needs from a competent Rav and therapist who hopefully will guide her the right way. Getting the parents involved while there is still a big potential to save the marriage will serve her no good in the long run.

amother

Vermilion

Sun, Jul 31 2022, 9:46 am

amother [ Ghostwhite ] wrote:

This. My daughter is a very happily married newlywed and yet she chooses to keep everything private from me. She won't share small and non-personal positive tidbits with me like if her husband did or bought something nice for her or his success in learning etc. I put in so much of my heart and soul and time and work to marry her off beautifully and now I wish I could be enjoying the nachas, she is keeping me at arms length distance and won't talk to me about anything more than her cooking and housework. To protect her privacy. It really hurts. Newlyweds, if all is good or mostly good, there is alot you can share with your parents. And in laws! That won't betray your marriage at all but bring them lots of joy.

Oy I’m so sorry. This is so so hard and my mother would be broken as well.

It’s so unfortunate people take the secrecy so far. BH I was actually taught that the most important people to praise your husband to is his mother and your parents. Any chance I get to do so, I will. It’s one thing to keep private things private. It’s another thing to engender positive feeling from parents to husband.

I hope your daughter learns to open up soon. If she’s newly married it might just take some time to figure out the balance.

amother

Whitewash

Sun, Jul 31 2022, 9:56 am

amother [ Mintgreen ] wrote:

First, is it a competent Rav and therapist? Who decided what was the best fit for the daughter here? A young, not-so-experienced Kallah teacher, who has only known the kallah for a short period of time? There are many self-proclaimed Rabbinical experts and therapist who dabble in these fields but do not have an open mind. They come with preconceived notions that a marriage must be saved no matter the costs here and expect the parties to move h*ll and high water for it, even if it means a lifetime of difficulties. Why shouldn't a close & loving parent be able to guide the kids to the right resources? Matching Rav/therapist to the clients is an important part of finding help. It's not a one size fits all situation.

Secondly, this 'big potential' mindset can ruin lives too. Technically, almost all marriages have 'big potential' if only one party changes their core being or their core behavior or what not. But so many times it leads to a difficult life for one or both spouses. This needs to be weighed heavily against the future consequences. The ideal shouldn't be if the marriage can be saved, the ideal should be can both spouses have happiness, peace and mental well-being in this marriage. And that's where we lose the big picture. We do whatever it takes to save a marriage, but we ruin lives in that process. There shouldn't be a one-size-fits all approach in these cases. Each case needs to be evaluated on its own merits to decide who should be involved. In many cases, parents involvement do hurt the marriage. But in many cases, the parents involvement saves their child a lifetime of hardships. Why does the former outweigh the latter? It shouldn't!

Ima_Shelli

Sun, Jul 31 2022, 10:01 am

ugh. I hate that this major issue that had they done their research and found out something similar about this guy a year before would have resulted in no first date ever happening is now something that the parents aren't even allowed to hear is going on. I sure hope this poor girl is on birth control and that someone is giving her good advice at least about that... (why do I doubt that?)

and in our society where the parents are involved enough to fully foot the bill of this couple's kollel lifestyle that is evidently not a kollel lifestyle, they should at least have a glimpse as to what is going on. so unfair for them to have to just zip their lips and foot the bill on one hand, and be uninvolved 'to respect their kids' privacy/autonomy' on the other hand. if I were Miri I'd feel mighty guilty cashing that monthly parental support check every month knowing that I'm keeping a major secret from my parents.

amother

Azure

Sun, Jul 31 2022, 10:06 am

amother [ Mintgreen ] wrote:

And the parents deserve to know that! They don't have to be told the details or even what the issue is, but to treat them like they're stupid is a total lack of mentchlichkeit.

They do not deserve sleepless nights and making fools of themselves by asking people who know more and being treated like a little child.

amother

Scarlet

Sun, Jul 31 2022, 10:10 am

amother [ Whitewash ] wrote:

I agree with all that whitewash is saying. Who said it needs to be abuse? My situation wasn’t abusive but had I had parents support and realized what a future would look like it would’ve saved me malky of heartache and now it’s with kids. We get married young and our parents do the research to marry us off, hoping he’s the right one. So why now do we not trust them to help us? I do understand many times parents can make a situation worse, but many times they have the wisdom of how a future can look living with this situation. And I agree who says the spouse will turn around? Many times it won’t even with the help of professionals. And what are we saving here when there are no kids involved. How are they supposed to raise their kids if their values don’t match up. Even if he’s not abusive now and they get along, they are setting up for a confusing childhood for their future kids and a lot of anguish that will cause loads of stress and tension so then they won’t get along in the end and have Shalom bayis issues due to this being pushed ahead.. A young naive girl getting married doesn’t see the whole picture usually, about how it will effect her future in the long run. This suddenly going off from yiddishkeit doesn’t take instant healing, it can take years and years and a lifetime of trauma work and beliefs, that is if the spouse if even willing to go or stick it out.

amother

Sun, Jul 31 2022, 10:14 am

I'm so surprised that people see the husbands issues as not big enough. Abuse is not the only thing that can make a marriage untenable. And it's not only a yiddishkiet issue, he obviously has mental health issues and is completely not functioning as an adult. How is this not huge enough to get advice from the people who love her most? Who else will be expected to pick up the pieces when it all inevitably falls apart? To me it seems like the boy, and probably his family to some extent, ignored the boys issues and now the wife is expected to put in the work to save him, with the parents footing the bill.

Java

Sun, Jul 31 2022, 10:20 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

No, he does not 'obviously have mental health issues.' He's obviously an immature guy in his young 20's who- like many, many of our teenage/young 20's population- was pushed into a box and never really given a chance to figure out who he wants to be.
Far cry from mental health issues.

amother

Mauve

Sun, Jul 31 2022, 10:30 am

I think we are doing a big disservice to our children by teaching them not to confide into their parents after marriage.

Yes, if you have a normal marriage, you should not discuss your disagreements with your parents. Yes, if after having several kids, you hit a snag in your marriage, you should first seek outside help before involving parents.

But, a newlywed who hasn't yet built a life with her husband and finds herself in a crisis should be encouraged to discuss it with her parents.
At the end of the day, her parents are the only ones who trully have her best interests at heart.
Speaking to a Rav is all very nice and good, but he has her dh's interests at heart too.

We're talking about a big crisis here. It's not that her dh wants to work instead of learning. He has no interest in yiddishkeit. Why on earth should she even be encouraged to stay married? I actually think she should be encouraged to get divorced. Anyone pushing her to stay and then have kids, is just causing her a lifetime of misery. Once she has kids it's too late, yet this crisis will be even bigger once chinuch enters the equation too. Now she's young and has her whole life ahead of her, why should she stay in a marriage where her dh sounds like he's going OTD?

amother

Wandflower

Sun, Jul 31 2022, 10:33 am

whitewash you got it 100%!
yes newlyweds need to form a bond and a marriage and renegotiate dynamics with parents.
but with a crisis a newlywed needs an advocate who is advocating for her as well
This is indeed a crisis.
While he may "grow out of it" he may not and this portends for the whole family any kids to come and lifestyle and everything.
Make no mistake, he betrayed her he married her under false pretenses.
She should definitely get to regroup and get support from those who have her best interests in mind. Does not mean they cannot make it.
But sure does mean that she should be operating with eyes open and advocating for her own interests as well.
Not be married at any cost.
Not be secondary to "his" needs. Or even the "need" to make the marriage work at any cost.
Not to be pulled into some confusing scenario of support for his issues at all costs.
Certainly not at this stage of the game.
Not to have her very real sense of shock and betrayal shoved under the rug chas v shalom.

amother

Whitewash

Sun, Jul 31 2022, 10:36 am

Java wrote:

Agree - but we are now asking this 'immature guy, who was never given a chance to figure out who he wants to be' to find himself asap and to commit to stuff that he has no idea if he wants them or not. So is this all a rolling of the dice for the poor kallah? Will the dh commit and then later on when he finds himself, decide that he no longer wants a part of it? Will the dh commit just to prevent a divorce label and put up a pretense for how long he can carry it? Is the dh even in a position to mentally make a choice?

Sounds like this guy was in no shape ready to get married. So now we are asking this kallah to trail along his ride, until he finds his footing with no guarantee of the outcome. There's a chance the outcome will be a good one, but there's an equal chance the outcome will be a negative one. And who will then be there for the poor kallah? The very same community who is pushing her to remain married at all costs, will then turn around and treat her and kids like a second class citizen? Or will it fall on the parents to help her pick up the pieces - the very same parents who are now being ostracized from helping her from the start?

amother

Sun, Jul 31 2022, 10:43 am

amother [ Whitewash ] wrote:

Thank you whitewash. You said it so much better than me. I think if the poor guy had any integrity he would be finding himself on his own life and dime and not involving this innocent girl.