Mishpacha Double Take

amother

Pistachio

Sun, Jul 31 2022, 10:44 am

amother [ Mintgreen ] wrote:

I am still considered a "newlywed" (married two years).

I was most definitely not taught in kallah classes to not share things with my parents.

The only thing I was taught was to not talk bad about your spouse to your family, because they will never forget it.

I remember my father telling me before I got married, don't share with us when you get in a fight because while you will make up and everything will be fine we won't be able to sleep the whole night worrying about you.

Strange. I understand that newlywed couples are sometimes quite young. On the other hand, both spouses should be mature enough to build a relation of trust with each other, where they will not go and tattle about their spouse for every little disagreement.

If they are not ready to build up a relationship of trust with their spouse, they are too immature to get married.

Quote:

I think that as a whole a girl old enough to get married should recognize signs of abuse and in that case definitely reach out. However, in this story it was very clear here that he was not being abusive but rather was struggling with his Yiddishkeit - something that was able to be worked on. Why should her parents have to know this and look down on him for the rest of his life?

Yes, I do think that the daughter should let her mother know that she is being helped. But remember, a newlywed marriage is very fragile. And a parents opinion can make it or break it.

Give this marriage a chance without involving the parents.

The way it was described in "double take" this was a case of mekach taut.

This young woman was deceived into marrying someone she would not have married had she known this very relevant piece of information. I think it's a good reason to advise with the parents whether this marriage should be continued.

And also, transparency should created from the beginning.

Maybe she likes his personality so much that the fact he is not religious and does not learn in kolel does not bother her. But she should not be forced to keep up a charade in order to protect his lies and his deception. She is allowed to tell her parents how things are. It would be very wrong in any way to keep her from doing this.

keym

Sun, Jul 31 2022, 10:47 am

But we are assuming that every or ar least most parents are able to separate their own personal feelings: hurt, anger, betrayal towards their son in law and be there 100% for their daughter without letting their personal feelings and ego get in the way.
Of course in a perfect world, a woman should be able to confide in her parents.
But I just don't think MOST parents are strong enough to be impartial and there for their daughter.
I was reading the article, and I was just struck with the feelings about the mother being concerned about how her daughter is doing. Rather than the mother concerned about how her daughter is doing. The difference is subtle but it makes a difference in if the daughter is going to feel pressured to leave her husband.

Ima_Shelli

Sun, Jul 31 2022, 10:52 am

amother [ Jade ] wrote:

Scary how much damage a misguided KT can cause. And people don’t think to look into that part. Everyone researches if the KT has the right hashkafos etc but not if they discourage girls from turning to their parents when they need help.

I’m not even near that parsha yet but I’m filing this away in my brain.

I'm actually very happy to discover this new thing to look into about kallah teachers. Mine was horrific and unneccesarily puritanical and anti-pleasure, and it took a toll on our marriage before I had the guts to ask someone about it and I realized this was NOT okay, and I now know to look into that for my daughters iyH when researching a kallah teacher (they are not in the parshah yet).

Now because of this story (thank you, Mishpacha!) I've been warned about another thing to look into before finding a kallah teacher for them. I consider this story to be very important for that reason (I.e. will the kallah teacher preach secrecy from parents at all costs even if big red flags emerge after marriage). Again, does she even have the sechel to suggest that this kallah get on birth control or ask a rav about it, as I'm sure the mother would?

keym

Sun, Jul 31 2022, 10:56 am

amother [ Mint ] wrote:

There is a difference between informing and confiding. The former is a matter of basic consideration.

Maybe, maybe not.
We actually don't hear the perspective of the daughter at all. Just the kalla teacher and mother.
We have no idea if the daughter feels that informing her parents that things are rough, yet she's getting help will let her parents sleep at night,or if it will open her up to a constant barrage of loving, yet intruding advice, and recommendations.
We have no idea how previous confiding went. If the daughter was raised to protect her parents, to only bring nachas, to reassure them. If she will feel obligated to listen to her parents advice, speak to their Rav.
We just don't know if the parents support will be there at all, will be comforting, or unpleasant.

amother

Blue

Sun, Jul 31 2022, 10:59 am

I’m finding these responses interesting. My kallah teacher specifically told me to share nice things about my husband with my mother. I can’t imagine why someone would be told not to share anything at all. She didn’t tell me what to do in case things didn’t turn out well, however, I was older and had a very close and open relationship with my chosson. There were definitely no surprises once we got married. I was close with my kallah teacher too and I guess she trusted that I would seek help if I needed it.

amother

Wandflower

Sun, Jul 31 2022, 11:08 am

Where did this attitude even come from that its best for her to isolate herself from those who know and love her best her whole life? She is so vulnerable and it can be all too easy to do the wrong thing with the best of intentions.

Yes pistachio exactly.

Integrity on the part of the chosson? He used her and marriage as a way of getting free to do what he wants. At her expense. disgusting

amother

Jetblack

Sun, Jul 31 2022, 11:29 am

I'm so surprised at these responses. I feel bad for the mother, but I think the KT was right in protecting the daughter's confidentiality. Maybe she could have said something like, "Yes, she is working something through, and getting help, but can't share details."

But it's not fair for the mom to pressure the KT to reveal info she doesn't have permission to share.
It's on the daughter to decide to share it.
Why all the hate on the KT in this story??

amother

Mint

Sun, Jul 31 2022, 11:37 am

keym wrote:

The KT failed to inform the daughter that the mother had called. There's no need to give details. The mother already knows things are rough. What she needs to be informed of is that they're working on it and it's not something worse!

amother

Currant

Sun, Jul 31 2022, 11:41 am

amother [ Mint ] wrote:

The mother has been pressuring the daughter already directly before she called the KT.
I’m sure it had been brought up already.
Especially since the girl kept insisting she shouldn’t tell anyone, even her parents.

amother

Ebony

Sun, Jul 31 2022, 12:08 pm

Java wrote:

No, he does not 'obviously have mental health issues.' He's obviously an immature guy in his young 20's who- like many, many of our teenage/young 20's population- was pushed into a box and never really given a chance to figure out who he wants to be.
Far cry from mental health issues.

Sounds like he simply was too young/not ready to get married. It's a problem inherent in the system. If he otherwise fit in with his peers/was automatically going along on the expected trajectory, who would know? Agree it's not mental health, but rather societal and that's a big unspoken problem we don't like to acknowledge. It works for many of the young people in our system but of course there are those who fall through the cracks and then the fallout is on the unsuspecting spouse and any children that they have. I've known couples like this who went through this when they were younger and tbh the most common result is that they ended up divorced and usually it was several years later and there were children involved.
That's the thing that stands out to me in this story, not about whether parents should be that involved or KT should be taking everything on themselves. We need to do better with our young people. Maybe these super young marriages shouldn't be the automatic default for everyone.

amother

Mauve

Sun, Jul 31 2022, 12:13 pm

keym wrote:

but it makes a difference in if the daughter is going to feel pressured to leave her husband.

No one should be pressurizing anyone to do anything.

Just wondering though, putting parents aside, what LOGICAL* reasons would there be for someone to stay in such a marriage?

Where huge hashkafic issues come up before they've built a real relationship together? (We're not talking about small differences - we're talking about someone who gets upset when she mentions what time Shabbos comes in - potential chillul Shabbos.)

It will only get worse once kids are in the picture.

*I put logical in caps, because of course she might be blindsided in the moment.

amother

Dimgray

Sun, Jul 31 2022, 1:03 pm

amother [ Ebony ] wrote:

This exactly. & also allow younger siblings to date / marry first to avoid pressure to get married when not ready.

keym

Sun, Jul 31 2022, 1:03 pm

amother [ Mauve ] wrote:

Honestly, I don't know.
I know though that it has to be the wife's decision that she can own on her own. So she never has any regrets.

amother

Sun, Jul 31 2022, 1:04 pm

amother [ Ebony ] wrote:

Someone just too young not ready to get married would just be sitting home all day mooching off wife and ils? Don't you think there is at least depression involved? And honestly this early in the game can you think of one good reason for the wife to stay?

keym

Sun, Jul 31 2022, 1:11 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Can it be her decision considering her age, inexperience and the predisposition of rabbanim to try to save marriages? And do you think it's ok the the parents are financially supporting this couple?

Do you think parents who are supporting a child can tell the child unilaterally that they must leave their spouse?

Do you think it's possible that in this scenario the daughter was afraid that her parents would force her to leave before she wanted to?

(Btw, do we know that the parents were supporting this couple?)

amother

Ebony

Sun, Jul 31 2022, 1:13 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

No I don't think it's depression. Unless he's depressed about being married and realizing he's taken on this lifetime of commitment and responsibility he wasn't ready for. I wouldn't call that clinical depression though, more like a sudden and harsh reality check.
Should the wife stay? I don't know. In the cases I know IRL the wife really resented being married to a guy like that especially when (predictably) he didn't pull his weight once they had kids. Either they are still married and she went through a phase of being a very resentful self pitying martyr type, or they eventually got divorced with kids in the picture. Harsh, but that's the reality I've seen.