Mishpacha Double Take

amother

Mauve

Sun, Jul 31 2022, 1:14 pm

keym wrote:

Honestly, I don't know.
I know though that it has to be the wife's decision that she can own on her own. So she never has any regrets.

I hear you. I do agree it's a concern.
But I have an even bigger concern about all these do-gooders possibly convincing her to stay in the marriage when it may not be in her best interests.
At the end of the day, her parents are really the only ones who have her best interests at heart.

amother

Ebony

Sun, Jul 31 2022, 1:15 pm

keym wrote:

Do you think parents who are supporting a child can tell the child unilaterally that they must leave their spouse?

Do you think it's possible that in this scenario the daughter was afraid that her parents would force her to leave before she wanted to?

(Btw, do we know that the parents were supporting this couple?)

Yeh, in the story the mother's side included a line that they were supporting financially.

amother

Lightblue

Sun, Jul 31 2022, 1:16 pm

I get that they're claiming the husband is a nice guy, except for this one issue, but this issue is major. It sounds like he wasn't really ready to get married if he doesn't know where he wants to be going in life.
And his sweet little wife sounds too young and naive to know enough to be making the enormous decision of staying in the marriage.
I know the beginnings of marriage is tough but this is more than that. And I think the kalla teacher and the daughter are being a little shortsighted to try and keep everything a secret.
Yes if they think they can work things out, they don't need to give parents all the details, but I do think it fair to say something to the parents.
But the assumption here is the girl and her parents are perfect. When I was newly married I pulled away from my parents and started the long road to healing from years of emotional abuse.

amother

Mauve

Sun, Jul 31 2022, 1:19 pm

I actually know a family where the father is abusive (controlling).
Her family didn't get involved in earlier years because they didn't want to cause a divorce.
Now many years and children later both her and her children are suffering.
And it's too late now to leave without ending up with huge custody battles and alineation wars.

Family members feel very guilty that they didn't get involved in the early years of the marriage. Because there ARE times that warrant family getting involved and helping someone leave a situation.

amother

Mauve

Sun, Jul 31 2022, 1:21 pm

amother Lightblue wrote:

But the assumption here is the girl and her parents are perfect. When I was newly married I pulled away from my parents and started the long road to healing from years of emotional abuse.

We can only work with the information we've been given.
And it sounds like she had a very close relationship with her daughter before marriage.
There's no indication otherwise and therefore we're talking about such a scenario.

#BestBubby

Sun, Jul 31 2022, 1:24 pm

This happened a Best Friend of my daughter.

The boy was from a rich fancy family married a very yeshivish girl from a no money family.

The girl's family was told the boy was different from his family - much more frum and wanted
a simple yeshivish girl.

shortly before the wedding, boy's family disclosed he has some mental health issues - but very minor.

The mental health issues were not so minor - boy would sleep most of the morning, could not get up.

The boy was not as frum as portrayed, started pressuring wife to dress more like his mother
and sisters with long shaitel, stylish clothing, nail polish.

The girl's parents consulted with Rabbonim who advised get divorced - don't try to "fix" this.
Especially as they were newly-wed and no children yet.

BH the girl remarried a very frum boy, as she wanted.

Beware of Rich families choosing no money families - sometimes they are trying to get
rid of a "problem" child using money as a bribe.

amother

Hunter

Sun, Jul 31 2022, 1:27 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Can it be her decision considering her age, inexperience and the predisposition of rabbanim to try to save marriages? And do you think it's ok the the parents are financially supporting this couple?

you seem to be extremely hung up on the fact that they're being supported by her parents. you've mentioned it in every one of your posts, when in the article it didn't seem to be a major part of the story at all. in fact the parents seemed to be happy to give them money for whatever they needed to get help etc, so I dont think they would make such a big deal about suppporting the couple financially till they figure things out.

amother

Ebony

Sun, Jul 31 2022, 1:34 pm

amother [ Hunter ] wrote:

I think it's a salient point, in that, he has the "luxury" of sitting at home while he goes through his "midlife crisis" so to speak. Without it, he'd be forced to step up. Whether it would be answering to his hardworking wife who is going out to work every day to support him (less theoretical than a check every month that makes it not much different than being under his parents financial roof that he's used to), or if he himself needed to show up at his job in order to get a paycheck needed for basic expenses.
I think that's part of the issue, too, with very young couples, often. I'm not saying parents shouldn't help out, but full support can mask issues that would otherwise be more obvious before the couple reached crisis mode.

amother

Charcoal

Sun, Jul 31 2022, 2:05 pm

amother [ Quince ] wrote:

I'm so sorry for what you went through.

Do you wish you would have been encouraged early on to confide in your parents?
What if that would mean they escalated things?

I think most parents, even healthy parents, tendency to escalate something like this, combined with their long memories, is why there is such a culture of keeping things private.

On the other hand, I believe the "privacy" rule grew from helping daughters mostly close to their parents navigate keeping insignificant things private and evolved to this culture of secrecy where in a super important relationship a girl is denied the insight of her parents.

Curious about your thoughts and those who went through something similar.

Yes I'm sorry for what I'm going through too Sad

Right now dh is sinking into a depression. I can't even be loving and supportive. I'm like "no,no,no!!! You can't do this to me!! It's worse than being a single mom!! And it late for months!!!"
(Yeah I'm in therapy, but we'd been doing recently well bc he was semi stable for the past while)

If I would've confided in kallah teacher I truthfully think she would have poopood it. She knew my dh too (not well) and he portrayed himself as as very serious (even intense)yeshiva bochur.f

If I would have confided in my mother, dh would have been livid "destroyed trust" etc.
My mother would probably have been upset for me, would probably have paid for m to go for therapy, may have gotten his rebbeim involved...

I don't know.

What's done is done. This is my life.

amother

Taupe

Sun, Jul 31 2022, 2:44 pm

amother [ Lightblue ] wrote:

The husband and wife are not only not on the same page hashkafically, but he is disinterested in yiddishkeit.
How does that make for a successful and happy marriage?
What's the point in "making him" go for guidance and therapy when his heart isn't in it? What will that achieve?
This is a very delicate situation.
Some people would be of the opinion that she should get out of the marriage before it's too late.

amother

Mauve

Sun, Jul 31 2022, 2:49 pm

amother [ Taupe ] wrote:

Also he gets upset with her when she mentions anything related to yiddishkeit.
This is at the beginning of his marriage when usually one tries to be on their best behavior.
He doesn't sound like 'Mr Nice Guy' to me...

amother

Seafoam

Sun, Jul 31 2022, 3:22 pm

#BestBubby wrote:

No, the kallah teacher could not tell the mother - especially since Miri stressed she did not
want her family to know.

I have sympathy for the mother, but she should do what the Rav suggested -
be loving but not pushy. And davven.

In general, it's better for couples to get advice from non-family members.

As the Rav said, the parents will never forget and the SIL will always be uncomfortable.

Miri stressed that she didn't want her mother to know only because that's what she was told in kallah class. It didn't seem to be stemming from her own discomfort.

amother

Wandflower

Sun, Jul 31 2022, 3:33 pm

amother [ Mauve ] wrote:

YES agree 100%

amother

Quince

Sun, Jul 31 2022, 3:40 pm

amother [ Charcoal ] wrote:

Yes I'm sorry for what I'm going through too Sad

I'm so sorry. I did not mean to make you question and rehash decisions in the past.

More want to know what advice would you give to us mothers and have us convey to our daughters with the benefit of your experience?

I ask you and those with your experience. As I mother with a daughter on the pasha the early marriage radio silence is the part I'm terrified of.

amother

Sun, Jul 31 2022, 3:47 pm

amother [ Hunter ] wrote:

I don't know why the money part bothers me so much. Maybe because it's like an additional slap in the face, not only was this girl deceived into marrying a boy with issues but her parents are being forced to pay for his empty lifestyle as well?

amother

Tomato

Sun, Jul 31 2022, 7:56 pm

amother [ Whitewash ] wrote:

Secondly, this 'big potential' mindset can ruin lives too. Technically, almost all marriages have 'big potential' if only one party changes their core being or their core behavior or what not. But so many times it leads to a difficult life for one or both spouses. This needs to be weighed heavily against the future consequences. The ideal shouldn't be if the marriage can be saved, the ideal should be can both spouses have happiness, peace and mental well-being in this marriage. And that's where we lose the big picture. We do whatever it takes to save a marriage, but we ruin lives in that process. There shouldn't be a one-size-fits all approach in these cases. Each case needs to be evaluated on its own merits to decide who should be involved. In many cases, parents involvement do hurt the marriage. But in many cases, the parents involvement saves their child a lifetime of hardships. Why does the former outweigh the latter? It shouldn't!

I think this is such an important point that I'm bringing it up again.

I've seen this focus on saving marriages, rarther than focus on whether the marriage is a mutually happy, satisfying, healthy one to save, and it has bothered me.

amother

Aconite

Sun, Jul 31 2022, 8:21 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Maybe he will go out to work and start feeling better about himself and his yoddishkeit will be positively affected as well.

amother

Aconite

Sun, Jul 31 2022, 8:23 pm

amother [ Ebony ] wrote:

If it’s depression, which it might well be because those are some symptoms, he would not just show up at his job to get a paycheck. As the wives on this site whose husbands are depressed. They sit home and don’t work.