Getting a Dog | Imamother

amother

Mon, Aug 01 2022, 7:14 pm

I would really love to get a dog. My kids are in mainstream frum schools. Our family is pretty mainstream too. Im seriously considering getting a dog and would love to hear your thoughts. Why do you think it isnt typically accepted for Frum people to have dogs? Is it just different?

hodeez

Mon, Aug 01 2022, 7:24 pm

They're the most tumadik animal. I would also love a dog, I had one when I was single. We actually had to confirm with my son's yeshiva that we were not planning on getting a dog, apparently it's that important 🤷

amother

Eggplant

Mon, Aug 01 2022, 7:30 pm

I would also love to get one. It’s all about the confidence, if you have the attitude of “yeah, I’m frum and I have a dog,” nobody will blink.

chanatron1000

Mon, Aug 01 2022, 7:31 pm

It's not done because it's not done because it's not done because it's not done. If we all just do it, it'll be done.

amother

Jetblack

Mon, Aug 01 2022, 7:32 pm

chanatron1000 wrote:

It's not done because it's not done because it's not done because it's not done. If we all just do it, it'll be done.

Also because it's a tamei animal and there are problems with chillul Shabbos. You're not allowed to touch it/ walk it on Shabbos.

amother

Mon, Aug 01 2022, 7:39 pm

Pigs are the most tumahdik animal. Why are dogs? Do you mean its not a kosher animal? And Halachically, if you own the pet and/or it relies on you, you can take care of it as you would on weekday.

Guess its a good thing Im not a confirmist!

watergirl

Mon, Aug 01 2022, 7:42 pm

I have two dogs. Where I live many frum people have them. During covid even more people got dogs… before more people seemed to be bothered by dogs but now? It’s pretty normal. But then again it’s never been an issue at all in any city I’ve ever lived in.

watergirl

Mon, Aug 01 2022, 7:44 pm

amother [ Jetblack ] wrote:

Also because it's a tamei animal and there are problems with chillul Shabbos. You're not allowed to touch it/ walk it on Shabbos.

False. Like much of halacha, this is nuanced. You can touch and walk your own dog on shabbos. Ask your own LOR if it applies to you.

amother

Iris

Mon, Aug 01 2022, 7:45 pm

A family with a lot of kids wouldn’t really want a dog because it’s another mouth to feed and another being to care for. And once most people don’t do it, it looks strange for someone to break the norm. I find in frum communities where people tend to have fewer kids they often do have dogs.

amother

Mon, Aug 01 2022, 7:47 pm

amother [ Iris ] wrote:

Hmmm I was wondering if thats it. Its just not fone because "If you can care for something like a dog, just have another kid"

amother

Plum

Mon, Aug 01 2022, 7:48 pm

reason #4087 I'm so glad I live OOT. my dogs are the best thing that's happened to our physical and emotional health and nobody cares we have them

amother

Orchid

Mon, Aug 01 2022, 7:49 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

For one thing the Talmud (Baba Kama 79b) writes that one is forbidden to own a dog unless it is securely chained (if the dog is securely chained it will neither do any damage nor frighten anyone with its bark). Moreover, the rabbis of the Talmud (Baba Kama 83a) strongly criticize those who owns dogs.

Rambam (Hilchot Nizkei Mammon 5:9), in fact, rules that it is forbidden to raise any dog unless it is secured by chains since dogs frequently cause damage.

I personally can't stand dog owners who don't seem to understand that I don't appreciate their dogs invading my personal space when I'm taking a walk

amother

Iris

Mon, Aug 01 2022, 7:54 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Hmmm I was wondering if thats it. Its just not fone because "If you can care for something like a dog, just have another kid"

I definitely think that’s what it is.

amother

Copper

Mon, Aug 01 2022, 8:20 pm

Go for it. And when you need a break I'll take it from you for a few days.

Not_in_my_town

Mon, Aug 01 2022, 8:37 pm

Some people pasken that it's okay to own a dog that doesn't bark, and others say it's never okay to own a dog. The reasoning is NOT because it is a "not tahor" animal, al pi halacha. That's only minhag. I'll cut and paste part of an article on this topic below.

As for myself, I plan to get a dog soon IYH. I'm actually going to get the only by-nature barkless dog in the world: a basenji. (Ten brownie points if you know what that is without looking it up! It happens to be the original domesticated dog, raised in Mitzrayim. If you want to know what the dogs in the days of the makkos looked like, even if you don't want to own one, do go ahead and google "basenji.")

Parts of article below:

FIRST CONSIDERATIONS: HALACHA
As Yidden, we know that halacha gives structure to everything we do. It defines the parameters of the permitted and the prohibited. So obviously, this is a fundamental place to start.
I picked up a sefer called Pets in Halacha by Rabbi Chaim L. Belsky and got a basic understanding of the topic. To the best of my ability, I’ve compiled a list of the animals that I’ve learned are assur and muttar to own.
Again, I’m not a posek, so please see his footnotes in the sefer for more information and do consult your own rav if you decide you want to bring home a walrus or a wildebeest… or anything else, for that matter.

The Prohibited
There are certain animals that halacha clearly says are forbidden to own. There are times, however, when it may be permissible to own even these animals, such as when someone requires a guard dog because they live in a particularly dangerous area; or one is given one of the following animals as a form of payment and needs to retain possession of it until the animal can be sold at fair market value. In such instances, one must ask a sha’ailah regarding how to proceed.

ASSUR TO OWN
Pigs
An aggressive dog that scares people, even if its bite is not dangerous.
Lions, tigers, bears, leopards, wolves and poisonous snakes, because they can never be truly domesticated and are a constant threat to life. (Other wild animals aren’t specified.)
Small grazing animals (goats and sheep) as they tend to graze in others’ fields. Some hold this only applies to individuals in Eretz Yisroel who live in inhabited areas; others suggest it may be applicable wherever there are Jewish-owned fields.

The Permissible
According to the letter of the law, the majority of other animals (according to most poskim) are permissible to own. There are many types of animals not included on this list, but this covers most of the commonly owned animals, as well as some of the exotic:

MUTTAR TO OWN
Domesticated cats (hybrid cats are questionable as they are more dangerous; one must ask a she’eilah)
Reptiles (lizards, geckos, iguanas, and the like)
Amphibians (frogs, toads, turtles)
Rodents (mice, gerbils, guinea pigs, hamsters, and the like)
Rabbits
Fish
Insects
Birds (It’s questionable whether birds may be kept inside the home. May also be considered tzaar baalei hachaim, as it causes distress to birds to keep them caged.)
Dogs (Most poskim hold that a dog that neither barks nor bites is permissible, though some pasken that it is never permissible.)
Monkeys
Goats and sheep (outside of Eretz Yisroel, according to many authorities).
Equines (horses, donkeys, and the like)

An Eye-Opening Halacha
Two years ago I wrote a fictional story on bikkurim, which led to my learning a halacha that opened my eyes. Was my character allowed to bring his bikkurim on a horse or donkey? I asked. Would the animal make the bikkurim tamei? No, I was told. Living animals — even nonkosher ones — do not transmit tumah; it is only carcasses we worry about. Therefore, touching a nonkosher animal would not — despite common misconception — make a person tamei.

The Bottom Line
Al pi halacha, it is permissible to own many types of animals — even nonkosher ones. The question, therefore, is not whether a Yid may own a nonkosher pet but whether a Yid should own a nonkosher pet.

DIGGING DEEPER
It’s important to realize that the relationship between man and animal has changed drastically as the centuries have rolled by. While animals were once primarily viewed as both a source of food and as working beings — such as through schlepping plows, herding sheep, catching mice and pulling wagons — animals in this country are largely viewed as companions. To better understand the issue, it's important to separate animals into the roles of service animals versus household pets.
When this is done, it’s quite clear why a non-dangerous seeing-eye dog is permissible according to all authorities (that I’m aware of): the animal is serving in a working capacity. Therapy animals of other species may also fit the bill. But owning a nonkosher animal simply as a companion isn’t to be taken lightly. While not necessarily assur, there are some weighty things to keep in consideration:

Distancing Ourselves From Undesirable Middos
Up until Noach’s times, animals weren’t allowed to be eaten. According to several meforshim, we’re currently allowed to eat animals only because they owe a debt of gratitude to mankind since Noach saved them from the Mabul by bringing them aboard the teivah. But if they owe a debt of gratitude to mankind, why is a Yid limited in which type of animal he eats? Shouldn’t all of them be permissible?
The Ramban in Parshas Shemini (11:13) tells us, “The reason for certain birds being forbidden as food is on account of their cruel nature. It is also possible that the reason for certain animals is similar, since no animal that chews the cud and has a split hoof is a beast of prey, while the rest all devour others.”
We are taught that the animals with the finest middos are the ones Yidden are allowed to consume, because at the end of the day, the adage rings true: You are what you eat. A Yid is supposed to live his life with a focus on constantly refining his middos, distancing himself from cruelty and violent tendencies. And while actually ingesting predatory animals affects a person in a way absolutely forbidden by the Torah, this concept can be taken one step further: The behaviors you are exposed to become the behaviors you exhibit.
Yes, nonkosher animals are often full of spunk and personality — and that’s probably what makes animals such as dogs so endearing to many people. They can be seen as cute, cuddly, entertaining, and extremely easy to adore. But there’s a fine line between being lively and being out of line. And while an animal following his nature certainly isn’t wrong for being wild and even predatory as needed, we don’t seek to emulate those middos.

Protecting the Neshamah Via the Eyes
It is well-known that the Lubavitcher Rebbe, zt”l, encouraged his chassidim to not give their children toys of nonkosher animals. On this concept he spoke at length, expounding upon the importance of surrounding Jewish children with only holy and pure objects. He also cautioned that everything makes an impact on a child:

“...a child is not just influenced by the food he eats and the liquid that he drinks, which would obviously be the case, since they become part of his flesh and blood. Everything that occurs around the child affects his soul, and this effect will become manifest in later years.”
-Shaarei Halacha U’minhag

The Kav Hayashar strengthens this concept, actually describing how impure animals can be detrimental to the neshamah:

“... You should know that every sin has a cause that brings one to it indirectly...
...It is true that one has permission to see unusual creatures brought from distant countries, and for this our sages established the blessing, ‘Blessed is the One Who makes unusual creatures.’ Nevertheless, one should not satisfy his eyes by gazing at them, and should look at them only in a cursory manner. For one’s eyesight perceives via four colors that correspond to the Divine Name of Havayah, and if the person sees impure creatures, he elicits a spirit of impurity, which hovers over him in this aspect. This then causes him to gaze at something even worse that brings the person to stumble ... Rather, one should accustom one’s eyes to gaze at holy things, and in this way he draws holiness upon himself, and brings great illumination to the four colors within his eyes.”

For the heilige tzaddik HaRav Eliezer Zusia Portugal, zt”l, the desire to distance himself from impurity was so great that he couldn’t even bring himself to say the word “cat” — even though a cat lived outside their home, faithfully doing its job as a mouser.
Each time before the Rebbe sat down to eat he would ask his family, “Hut zi gegessen? Has she eaten?”
“She,” of course, was the cat. While the Rebbe showed concern for the animal and the halacha (to not eat before one’s animal has eaten), he didn’t want to have familiarity with it in any manner.
There are other powerful sayings from Torah giants regarding the ownership of animals, but at the end of the day, the takeaway message I’ve gained from this is that having a nonkosher pet can result in a negative spiritual impact on a Yid, but it is not completely assur.
Each person should carefully evaluate their goals in life before buying that bunny or keeping a cat. And while there are certainly Torah sources to permit bringing nonkosher animals into one’s life, the trade-off might not be worth it.
With this knowledge in hand, you can go forth and make an educated decision.

Not_in_my_town

Mon, Aug 01 2022, 8:42 pm

amother [ Jetblack ] wrote:

Also because it's a tamei animal and there are problems with chillul Shabbos. You're not allowed to touch it/ walk it on Shabbos.

By the way, this isn't true. You ARE allowed to walk a dog on Shabbos, even outside of an eruv following specific halachos. Touching a non-pet animal on Shabbos is forbidden, but there are poskim who permit touching a pet on Shabbos. Picking up or moving an animal is not permitted.

amother

Sage

Mon, Aug 01 2022, 8:43 pm

I know lots of frum people who have a dog. When I was a kid, it was much more rare. I think because people had bigger families, and it was just too much work/money for it to even be a consideration. The few families I knew that had dogs, tended to be the ones with less kids.

Now I do see it around quite a bit more, but yes, usually those aren't the double digit families (which are not as frequent as they used to be....)

amother

DarkViolet

Mon, Aug 01 2022, 8:51 pm

We have dogs.
Dogs are great, so sweet and loving. I don’t want to warn you off dogs because they they’ve been good for our emotional health and the kids development and are really family members .
That said, It’s hard in a lot of ways. , we live in an OOT community with lots of BTs who more or less tolerate these things. It’s hard, honestly. The dogs came around before we were BT or even had a child and I love them but they don’t really “fit” with our life these days. It’s hard to have shabbos guests or get teen girls to babysit my baby. I guess none of those are deal breakers, but maybe as BT I put much more stock in fitting in than I should.one of the dogs especially, came at a time where she really helped my emotional stability. However when the time comes that my dogs are no longer living, I don’t think I’ll ever get another one not because I don’t love dogs but because it’s too complicated as a frum Jew.

watergirl

Mon, Aug 01 2022, 8:57 pm

Not_in_my_town wrote:

I had a basenji, and considering how uncommon they are, I was amazed when I learned my boss had one also. If you have not already, please learn all about this breed. They are wild African dogs who DO make sounds (more like a yodel sound) and due to their nature are not recommended for first time dog owners because they are difficult to train. If the only reason you’re drawn to this breed is due to their barking, I recommend looking into other awesome breeds. They are also very playful and really good family dogs (older kids) once you have the training down. I have two dogs and one of them just about never barks but does howl every now and then on a rare occasion (she is just a shelter mix and she is amazing).

I’ve been a dog owner my entire adult life and grow up with dogs because my parents always had. Please feel free to private message me if you have any questions. I am a major dog, cat, and pocket pet lover and we have a number of pets in our house at all times.

Not_in_my_town

Mon, Aug 01 2022, 9:07 pm

Thanks watergirl. Awesome that you had a basenji! I'm actually an experienced dog owner and I know that they're highly intelligent, respond well to positivity (and will pee in your slippers if given negativity! LOL), and can be very destructive when bored. Such is the nature of the breed.

I actually wanted to be dog breeder when I was growing up. I've had Timber wolf/siberian husky mixes, a St. Bernard/border collie mix, a GSD/malamute mix, and more. But a basenji is calling my name! My personal dog was the GSD/malamute mix and he so well trained I could put a steak in front of him and he wouldn't touch it.

When I came into the chasidishe community I thought my dog days are over... But they're not. My husband is totally fine with getting one at this point, and my kids are desperate for one. We're moving out of the area, hopefully, so the dog won't be traumatized by the people who'd running screaming from it... Wink

We can be frum, in love with Hashem and following halacha... and still have a dog. No need to divorce my personality.

Last edited by Not_in_my_town on Mon, Aug 01 2022, 9:10 pm; edited 1 time in total