Does observance of Tisha B'Av really change anyone?

amother

Sun, Aug 07 2022, 11:30 am

Does observance of Tisha B'Av really change anyone? Im middle aged, and I know not all changes can be "seen" yadayadayada, but I havent seen any changes in anyone.

They go through the motions today, trying to picture the desecration of the Temples, and what life could be like when we have the Geulah, but I dont see any differences when the day is over.

Please inspire me with details, if you HAVE seen people change by observance of Tisha B'Av.

Aside from fast days, what HAS changed people for the better, in any way, making them more observant, more spiritual, more giving, less materialistic....?

tia

BadTichelDay

Sun, Aug 07 2022, 11:46 am

Where does it say that Tisha B'Av is supposed to change people? It is a day of mourning. If c"v people have lost a loved one and mourn, do we expect them to "change"? We mourn what we have lost collectively, both in this world and in terms of our connection to Hashem as a people. We mourn the 2000 years of galut that started from the destruction onwards and affect us until today. It's a day of national catastrophe, so to say, stunning and overwhelming.
For personal repentance, teshuva and self-improvement we have Yom Kippur and the 10 days of repentance before it.

amother

Sun, Aug 07 2022, 11:51 am

BadTichelDay wrote:

Where does it say that Tisha B'Av is supposed to change people?

If we dont change how will we end Galus, so as not to observe Tisha BAv forever?

Everything we do is supposed to have an effect on us.

And many Shiurim somehow leave me with the feeling that were supposed to change after Tisha BAv, and be more permanently broken over the long Galus so we can end the Galus.

amother

Navyblue

Sun, Aug 07 2022, 11:52 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

If we dont change how will we end Galus?

Everything we do is supposed to have an effect on us.

And many Shiurim somehow leave me with the feeling that were supposed to change after Tisha BAv, and be more permanently broken over the long Galus so we can end the Galus.

If you need to change anything, look inside.
Most people are already trying their best.

It is never helpful to look at what others are doing to better themselves.
You can’t change anyone but yourself.

amother

Periwinkle

Sun, Aug 07 2022, 12:00 pm

My son told me that he can't mourn the bais hamikdash. He said that he's not sad about it at all and doesn't think almost anyone else is either. We really can't relate to it on even the most simplest level so are we really sad? And then poof- tonight we aren't sad anymore until next year when the calendar says to be sad again. That's not real sadness.

I think he's being practical. He said he's much sadder about the holocaust where he sees pictures of his young great grandparents who were murdered. He can relate to that. He's sad for jews suffering from all types of tzoros. He's sad his aunt just got divorced and their family will never be the same. But are any of us truly sad about the bais hamikdash? It would take a very high madraiga to genuinely cry about it today. For context, my son is 20.

BadTichelDay

Sun, Aug 07 2022, 12:04 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

There are two ways the galut can end, be'ietah (in its time) or de'achishena (speedily in haste). If we collectively (all or at least most Jews) do teshuva, it will be speedy and glorious. If not, Hashem will redeem us at the latest possible moment and not in the best way.

Of course we want the speedy ge'ulah. But for that we have to work always, not just on Tisha b'Av. Being more permanently broken, as you wrote, is not necessarily productive. It would seem better to strive to be a better Jew and to inspire others to do the same. Also, Tisha b'Av came about because of sinat chinam. Therefore, one change we probably should take away from it is more ahavat Yisrael.

amother

Gold

Sun, Aug 07 2022, 12:08 pm

amother [ Periwinkle ] wrote:

But that’s the point. Any pain or sadness in our lives is a direct cause of Mashiach not being here. It’s hard to yearn for the Bais Hamikdash when we are so far removed. Can anyone really imagine Karbanos? I cry for Mashiach so all my personal pain and all the Jews’ pain goes away. Everyone is suffering in their own way because Mashiach isn’t here yet.

amother

Tuberose

Sun, Aug 07 2022, 12:16 pm

amother [ Periwinkle ] wrote:

But it’s all connected. If the bais hamikdash was rebuilt the holocaust wouldn’t have happened…

Not_in_my_town

Sun, Aug 07 2022, 12:50 pm

Tisha B'Av is our time to cry out to Hashem and say, "We've been searching for you for thousands of years! Despite the two destructions of the Batei Mikdash, the Crusades, the Inquisition, the Holocaust, blood libels, pograms... We're still hanging on, sitting here, crying because we miss you, we want you. Haven't we suffered more than enough? Our crimes are long since paid back. We've had injustice upon injustice heaped upon us. And yet we accept it. For YOU, Hashem. Because we love you. Now please come out and redeem your stiff-necked people."

Tisha B'av is less about change than it is about persistence. We're stubborn and we're here, despite our suffering. How can Hashem NOT redeem us?

Elfrida

Sun, Aug 07 2022, 12:53 pm

If this is the situation that we are now in, having observed the Three Weeks, the Nine Days, and being in the middle of Tisha b'Av, can you imagine where we would be without it?

At least this way we can try to understand and feel. If Chazal had not instituted this period of mourning, our interest in the Beit HaMikdash would be mainly historical. The very fact of the fast and the limitations forces us to try to focus on our loss.

PinkFridge

Sun, Aug 07 2022, 2:38 pm

Tisha B'Av is the day we reach spiritual, emotional rock bottom. Then because we are a resilient people we get up and start to figure out how we can get out of this and prevent another Tisha B'Av. (This is evidently the justification for the Chofetz Chaim Heritage Foundation et al focusing their programs on growth.) You could say it's the beginning of the teshuva season.

PinkFridge

Sun, Aug 07 2022, 2:54 pm

amother [ Lightyellow ] wrote:

Since when is it supposed to change people?

Its a day to be mindful and remember what we lost and what we are in constant mourning for.

You're right. And just because chatzos has passed doesn't mean we still don't focus on aveilus, painful parts of history, etc. I'm just explaining why there is an expectation of some transformation.

amother

Peach

Sun, Aug 07 2022, 3:17 pm

Everyone listen to charlie hararies shiur from La at not with chazaq- can be found on Torah anytime ITS AMAZING AND ANDWERES ALL THESE QUESTIONS!!! It really lit my neshama on fire and inspired me to make some important changes which beh I will do

amother

Burgundy

Sun, Aug 07 2022, 3:25 pm

If we are to truly mourn the loss and want the Bayis Shlishi to be rebuilt then each person should look at themselves to see how they can improve. I learned that this the purpose- not only the mourning but the yearning to bring Hashems Shechina. The Shechina cannot rest in a place if there is friction.
The previous Bais Hamikdash destroyed because of baseless hatred - and it says that every generation that the Bais Hamikdash is not rebuilt its as if it is being destroyed.

Thank you for posting the question.

zaq

Sun, Aug 07 2022, 3:30 pm

amother [ Tuberose ] wrote:

But it’s all connected. If the bais hamikdash was rebuilt the holocaust wouldn’t have happened…

My friend, if the meraglim had had true faith and not badmouthed the Land of Milk and Honey and sown fear and panic in the hearts of their constituents, and if their constituents had listened to Kalev and Yehoshua instead, the entire nation would have been on a Waze Fastest Route to the Promised Land and NONE of the ensuing tragedies from the massacre of the kohanim of Nov right through the Holocaust and beyond, would have happened. It all started from that one act of bad faith on the part of people who had every reason to know better.

imorethanamother

Sun, Aug 07 2022, 3:38 pm

Transformation rarely comes in a moment.

Introspection rarely produces instant changes.

It’s the drip drip accumulation of the joys and the sorrows, building the paintings of life by adding brushstrokes and making sculptures by chiseling away the stone, the ebbs and flows of Judaism that will one day emerge a human being. Not perfect, but a better one than before.

ora_43

Sun, Aug 07 2022, 4:08 pm

amother [ Periwinkle ] wrote:

It's not natural sadness, but that doesn't mean it's not real.

Generally in life - if you have something and lose it, you mourn, if you never had it at all, you don't even realize you're missing anything. But the loss is still real.

And if you don't realize you're missing anything, you can undervalue some very important things going forward. L'havdil, but that's how you get whole communities of people being like, "there's nothing wrong with (being beaten as a child/ not having a father/ etc), that's how I was raised and I'm fine."

Hence the value of forced sadness. So that we don't start to be like, "who needs a beit mikdash, I was raised without one and I'm fine."

It doesn't come naturally but davka the fact that it doesn't come naturally is what makes it important.