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elisheva25




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 23 2022, 9:23 am
octopus wrote:
Exactly. The age of the universe and the age of man are two separate counts. Thank you for writing. We have no idea how much a Divine day is. Totally out of my league but einsteins theory of relativity is that the closer you are to the sun time moves faster I think. So with the amount of energy used in creation (big bang) that could amount to a lot of human years. But could just be one day for Hashem. We have no idea how Hashem measures time. Tehilim in davening says "davar tziva l'elef dor." There are no 1000 generations between creation of man and giving of the Torah. If you do the calculation it's very close to the age the scientists have for the universe.



Very good explanation
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iyar




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 23 2022, 10:13 am
Time is relative and depends on your vantage point. Einstein explained it better than me. The time span of the six days of Creation is discussed by people much smarter than me but it's not a topic I'm able to understand completely.
We're specifically taught that even though we can study the intricacies of the universe and the nature of the world we live in, we're not supposed to delve into the psukim describing the creation of the world. It's not fashionable to suggest we can't ask about anything and everything but if you can understand that your retina can be damaged by looking directly at the sun, you can understand that your brain also has limitations.
Evolution exists within the teva of the world we live in. Organisms do evolve, but we believe that Hashem created birds, fish, mammals and humans and one didn't evolve from the other.
The belief that the world and all the organisms living here including ourselves came to be through evolution is kefira. It's also impossible to prove scientifically as there's no way it could have happened. The idea that dinosaurs once may have roamed the earth is not necessarily problematic.
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sequoia




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 23 2022, 10:17 am
The current view is that dinosaurs were covered in soft, brightly-colored feathers and were definitely birds.
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singleagain




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 23 2022, 10:25 am


Last edited by singleagain on Sun, Aug 28 2022, 5:05 pm; edited 1 time in total
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keym




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 23 2022, 10:45 am
We know from the Torah that giants existed before and after the mabul. The midrashim describe Sichon and Og-30 amos to his ankle, etc.
Why is it so beyond our ability to think that "giant-sized" animals (reptiles or birds) also existed.

That they existed MORE than 5782 years ago is a different conversation.
I do know that the mabul wasn't an ordinary flood. It was a supernatural flood and there's no reason not to believe that the mabul did things to the world, and left it's mark.

Not to mention all the other explanations about exactly how much time passed before Yom Hashishi, especially before the sun and moon were created.

My kids aren't huge dinosaur fans. They prefer lights and sirens but they have dinosaur pajamas.
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GLUE




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 23 2022, 11:34 am
I was once in the museum of natural History in Manhattan, the guide was proudly saying how they have an almost complete skeleton of a dinosaur.

Apparently finding a full skeleton is very unusable, what dinosaurs really look like is someone's best guess.

That is why I think of dinosaurs more as fiction charters then real things.
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effess




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 23 2022, 12:21 pm
Gerald Schroeder’s explanation how the Torah account of creation how it fits the scientific aging of the world is controversial among Torah thinkers.
There’s his theory based on certain sources that each day was many years longer than 24 human hours and there’s tge overwhelming opinion that a erev and boker are according to the order Hashem created for those He created time for.
It’s important to look at science as theory only. And it’s possible to fit Torah into the theories. But more importantly, a believing Jew needs to look at Torah as Emes and then after try to fit the science into that. Sometimes it works seemlessly, sometimes, not so much.
It’s okay when there’s a difference.
According to this, dinosaurs definitely have possibly existed. Nothing wrong with playing with toy dinosaurs..
To some it’s too strongly associated with scientific theory about the age of the world, therefore are uncomfortable.
All are valid.

Another important point, though not the point of the discussion, There’s a phenomenon called Torah apologists where scholars will fold the Torah into a figurative pretzel to fit in with science. It’s hard not to fall into that “trap”. But if we look at Torah as the foundation and divine truth, and science as only human wisdom to understand Hashem’s world, it helps us navigate this journey.
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gootlfriends




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 23 2022, 12:34 pm
Just for the record, evolution is definitely real. In the last 100 years we have seen people change. All women use to nurse clean. My great grandmother nursed all of her children with no prevention methods and it took 2 years to ovulate. Now, 30% of fertile women can get pregnant within a few months of giving birth with exclusively nursing. People use to be much more capable, a 12 year old could hold down a job. Nowadays, most 18 year olds can't. I am not saying we understand creation and all that, but don't dismiss it completely.
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#BestBubby




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 23 2022, 1:01 pm
I believe that the world is created in literally Six Days.

It says Six or Seven times these words "Vayihi Erev, Vayehi Boker, Yom Echad"

"It was Evening and it was Morning. ONE Day"

What is the purpose of these words?

Why could it not just say: Day One, Day Two, Day Three

Why the need to emphasize that it was EVENING, than MORNING - ONE DAY?

Torah is telling us that creation was Six Normal Days.

Do you think it is IMPOSSIBLE for HASHEM to create the world in Six Days?

Does Hashem NEED "billions of years"???

In Pirkei Ovos the question is asked Why Hashem took "so long" to create the world
with Ten Declaration - when Hashem could have created the world with "One Declaration"!
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Java




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 23 2022, 1:02 pm
#BestBubby wrote:
I believe that the world is created in literally Six Days.

It says Six or Seven times these words "Vayihi Erev, Vayehi Boker, Yom Echad"

"It was Evening and it was Morning. ONE Day"

What is the purpose of these words?

Why could it not just say: Day One, Day Two, Day Three

Why the need to emphasize that it was EVENING, than MORNING - ONE DAY?

Torah is telling us that creation was Six Normal Days.

Do you think it is IMPOSSIBLE for HASHEM to create the world in Six Days?

Does Hashem NEED "billions of years"???

In Pirkei Ovos the question is asked Why Hashem took "so long" to create the world
with Ten Declaration - when Hashem could have created the world with "One Declaration"!

That's your right. You can believe whatever you want.
Just know that many people much greater than you interpret it differently.
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Java




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 23 2022, 1:04 pm
octopus wrote:
Exactly. The age of the universe and the age of man are two separate counts. Thank you for writing. We have no idea how much a Divine day is. Totally out of my league but einsteins theory of relativity is that the closer you are to the sun time moves faster I think. So with the amount of energy used in creation (big bang) that could amount to a lot of human years. But could just be one day for Hashem. We have no idea how Hashem measures time. Tehilim in davening says "davar tziva l'elef dor." There are no 1000 generations between creation of man and giving of the Torah. If you do the calculation it's very close to the age the scientists have for the universe.

I'm curious about this (the connection to Einstein's theory of relativity.) I want to look into this
Thanks for mentioning it!
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#BestBubby




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 23 2022, 1:11 pm
gootlfriends wrote:
Just for the record, evolution is definitely real. In the last 100 years we have seen people change. All women use to nurse clean. My great grandmother nursed all of her children with no prevention methods and it took 2 years to ovulate. Now, 30% of fertile women can get pregnant within a few months of giving birth with exclusively nursing. People use to be much more capable, a 12 year old could hold down a job. Nowadays, most 18 year olds can't. I am not saying we understand creation and all that, but don't dismiss it completely.


Evolution WITHIN species is real - scientists give this "proof" of evolution / survival of the fittest

Bugs are sprayed with insecticide that kills 90% of the bugs.

Those bugs that are naturally immune to the insecticide survive (survival of the fittest)
and reproduce.

In a short time, 90% of the bugs are immune to the insecticide.

See - the bugs EVOLVED (changed) to become immune to insecticide

So Bugs changed into a "super bug" - but NOT INTO ANOTHER SPECIES, they are still BUGS!

But there is NO EVIDENCE that a SPECIES EVOLVED INTO ANOTHER SPECIES.

So a Woman may "evolve" from nursing clean to not nursing clean - they are still Women!

But that does not prove that humans EVOLVED from MONKEYS or any other organism
as the Evolutionists claim. So the Theory of Evolution is False.


PS 12 year olds could hold down many jobs - babysitter, cook, pick crops, factory worker

In rich societies, 12 year olds don't HAVE to work and there are laws forbidding child labor.

In the Holocaust, there were some tall 12 year olds who survived slave labor, they're capable.


Last edited by #BestBubby on Tue, Aug 23 2022, 1:27 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 23 2022, 1:26 pm
sequoia wrote:
The current view is that dinosaurs were covered in soft, brightly-colored feathers and were definitely birds.


Fascinating!
Did you once post a link to an essay/booklet by Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan on this or related subjects?
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Tranquil




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 23 2022, 2:21 pm
gootlfriends wrote:
Just for the record, evolution is definitely real. In the last 100 years we have seen people change. All women use to nurse clean. My great grandmother nursed all of her children with no prevention methods and it took 2 years to ovulate. Now, 30% of fertile women can get pregnant within a few months of giving birth with exclusively nursing. People use to be much more capable, a 12 year old could hold down a job. Nowadays, most 18 year olds can't. I am not saying we understand creation and all that, but don't dismiss it completely.


That is not “evolution” as the secular world describes it.

What you are saying is “yeridos hadoros”, the generations go down (as in: get weaker in all areas). Yes, we are weaker than previous and before that and before that… and each generation is as it needs to be to survive in the current world: but we were ALWAYS HUMANS.

Not an animal species that “evolved” into a human.

I am sure you know this.


Last edited by Tranquil on Tue, Aug 23 2022, 3:43 pm; edited 1 time in total
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imanotmommy




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 23 2022, 2:32 pm
#BestBubby wrote:
I believe that the world is created in literally Six Days.



Hashem exists outside of time. He doesn't "need" any amount of to create anything. Whatever the amount of time it took, it just means that He caused it to take that amount of time.
Really, seeing as there were no people around to count time, you can argue that the concept of time during Creation can be defined by the effects on the creations that did exist. So, for example, if Hashem created dinosaurs one "day" and then had them age to what they would have looked like after 1,000 years (a bunch of bones), then, arguably, that could be called "a day that takes 1,000 of our definition of a year". Since Hashem is outside of time, it could be defined based on human's experience of it and its affect on everything in the world-of which only the latter existed for most of the "Six Days".
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#BestBubby




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 23 2022, 2:41 pm
imanotmommy wrote:
Hashem exists outside of time. He doesn't "need" any amount of to create anything. Whatever the amount of time it took, it just means that He caused it to take that amount of time.
Really, seeing as there were no people around to count time, you can argue that the concept of time during Creation can be defined by the effects on the creations that did exist. So, for example, if Hashem created dinosaurs one "day" and then had them age to what they would have looked like after 1,000 years (a bunch of bones), then, arguably, that could be called "a day that takes 1,000 of our definition of a year". Since Hashem is outside of time, it could be defined based on human's experience of it and its affect on everything in the world-of which only the latter existed for most of the "Six Days".


Hashem can create everything in an instant.

Just like Hashem created Odom and Chava as adults and not newborn babies.

If anyone had seen Odom and Chava they would believe that is "proof" that they
are at least 20 years old - when they were just created.
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OceanRider




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 23 2022, 2:43 pm
gootlfriends wrote:
Just for the record, evolution is definitely real. In the last 100 years we have seen people change. All women use to nurse clean. My great grandmother nursed all of her children with no prevention methods and it took 2 years to ovulate. Now, 30% of fertile women can get pregnant within a few months of giving birth with exclusively nursing. People use to be much more capable, a 12 year old could hold down a job. Nowadays, most 18 year olds can't. I am not saying we understand creation and all that, but don't dismiss it completely.


I’m not sure you fully understand the term evolution.
What you are describing is a weakening of something. Not a change.

There’s micro evolution- which is the evolution “within” species, which is something we all agree with.

Then there’s macro evolution- the belief that species “as a whole” change into something else - which is not proven at all and is in a fact a pretty weak argument.

No scientist believes we have “figured it all out”. Scientific theories are theories. Not facts. We are still in the process of trying to understand.

If the Torah is true and divine, that will be enough for me.
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Elfrida




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 23 2022, 3:01 pm
#BestBubby wrote:

But that does not prove that humans EVOLVED from MONKEYS or any other organism
as the Evolutionists claim. So the Theory of Evolution is False.



No one ever claimed that humans were descended from monkeys. Darwin suggested that they were both descended from a common ancestor. Incidentally, we have more than 98% of our DNA in common.

I don't necessarily agree with all of Darwin's ideas, and a major flaw is that the 'missing links' he theorized about have not been found, but when disagreeing with a scientific theory, it makes sense to know what you are disagreeing with.

Regarding feathered dinosaurs, they way I heard it explained was that not every dinosaur had feather, but they all had the ability to produce feathers. The same way that all mammals have hair follicles and the intrinsic ability to grow hair, but not all of them do. You never see a hairy elephant.
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#BestBubby




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 23 2022, 3:05 pm
Elfrida wrote:
No one ever claimed that humans were descended from monkeys. Darwin suggested that they were both descended from a common ancestor.


Descended from a common ancestor is just a theory.

There is no evidence that one species has ever "evolved" into another species.

No "missing link" of half evolved animals ever found.

PS. I wrote "No proof Humans evolved from Monkeys OR ANY OTHER ORGANISM"

you edited out "any other organism".
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Elfrida




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 23 2022, 3:22 pm
#BestBubby wrote:
Descended from a common ancestor is just a theory.

There is no evidence that one species has ever "evolved" into another species.


Which is why it is called the Theory of Evolution.

Quote:
No "missing link" of half evolved animals ever found.


As I stated

Quote:

PS. I wrote "No proof Humans evolved from Monkeys OR ANY OTHER ORGANISM"

you edited out "any other organism".


No I didn't. Read it again.
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