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S/o unpopular opinions thread- kollel q
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Java




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 23 2022, 9:27 pm
Spinning off my own post- curious to hear dissenting opinions on this one!
Java wrote:
The kollel lifestyle at its root is not healthy for a marriage. A lot of men are inherently primed to want to support their families and can struggle with their self worth if they're not the one doing that.

I honestly feel like even if a guy is helping out around the house in other ways, not being the one to bring in the money is really demoralizing.
(I have personal experience in the kollel 'system', this is what I've seen and experienced.)
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doodlesmom




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 23 2022, 10:08 pm
It holds true for many, but not all.

If a man can set up a business or Parnassa, and then cut down his hours to learn he would feel much better.
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naturelover




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 23 2022, 10:10 pm
Its definitely not ideal. The man's curse is to work and the women's is to have babies. In this system the women ends up getting both curses. Men and women are different no matter what the current woke population tries to tell you.
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Goody2shoes




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 23 2022, 10:18 pm
While I've been doing it for 4 years now, it's not something I would encourage others to do. It worked by me as long as I didn't have children. Now that we have our first on the way, dh is thinking of doing half learning/working and seeing how it goes from there.
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BrachaVHatzlocha




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 23 2022, 10:23 pm
I believe that if a woman truly holds in esteem a torah lifestyle and looks up to her husband learning, the respect she bestows on him should be enough that he shouldn't feel like he is letting her down (by not making $) .
I could be wrong. but as a woman who supported her husband for many years, I think that if there's a mutual agreement about this lifestyle, it can work for many people. Yes, my husband felt bad if I was working hard, but it was my pleasure as long as I could, because I knew I was a partner in his learning.
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Flip Flops




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 23 2022, 10:30 pm
BrachaVHatzlocha wrote:
I believe that if a woman truly holds in esteem a torah lifestyle and looks up to her husband learning, the respect she bestows on him should be enough that he shouldn't feel like he is letting her down (by not making $) .


This. In my community, those who learn torah are held in such high esteem. My husband wants and loves to learn. It's the way we were raised and the communities we grew up in that instilled these values in us.
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lamplighter




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 23 2022, 10:31 pm
I find this with all my friends and relatives nothing to do with kollel. The ones where the wives make the money or most of the money, the husband feels less than, and it is a significant contributor to sholom bayis issues.
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happytobemom




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 23 2022, 10:41 pm
naturelover wrote:
Its definitely not ideal. The man's curse is to work and the women's is to have babies. In this system the women ends up getting both curses. Men and women are different no matter what the current woke population tries to tell you.

My husband shared with me a shmooze he heard from the Lakewood Mashgiach R' Mattisyahu Salomon shlit"a in Yiddish many years ago. (I'm sharing that my husband retold this and I never heard it firsthand - I don't speak Yiddish - because I know I may not explain properly, this is all third hand. Just a disclaimer.)

The basic premise was this. Man was created to be fully provided for. It is not his natural ability to make a living. When Adam and Chava were cursed, along with the curses came the ability to withstand them. This enabled Man to be ABLE to make a living and everything that comes along with that, as well as Woman to be able to have children and withstand everything that that entails.

Woman was not given the ability to provide, and Man was not given the ability to birth children.

Lest you think I'm anti kollel here, we're still in a non-anon forum, and I did state quickly on the other thread that I am NOT anti kollel. (I baruch Hashem have been living kollel life for a large number of years, kein yirbu.) I'll try to explain, as best as I can.

The mashgiach explains that when a woman accepts upon herself the burden of being the breadwinner of the family so that her husband can learn, she is granted that gift that Adam was given along with his curse - the ABILITY to provide.

I don't know if this was quoted from the Mashgiach himself, or something I understood and took out of it (it's been a while), but it seems to me that this means that Woman will only have the ability to provide for her family if she ACCEPTS that upon herself for the sake of her husband.

Does it work for everyone? I'm sure not. This is just my understanding of how it CAN work, and why this system doesn't give woman an extra "curse".
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happytobemom




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 23 2022, 10:43 pm
BrachaVHatzlocha wrote:
I believe that if a woman truly holds in esteem a torah lifestyle and looks up to her husband learning, the respect she bestows on him should be enough that he shouldn't feel like he is letting her down (by not making $) .
I could be wrong. but as a woman who supported her husband for many years, I think that if there's a mutual agreement about this lifestyle, it can work for many people. Yes, my husband felt bad if I was working hard, but it was my pleasure as long as I could, because I knew I was a partner in his learning.

10000%
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GLUE




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Aug 24 2022, 12:31 am
happytobemom wrote:
The mashgiach explains that when a woman accepts upon herself the burden of being the breadwinner of the family so that her husband can learn, she is granted that gift that Adam was given along with his curse - the ABILITY to provide.

I don't know if this was quoted from the Mashgiach himself, or something I understood and took out of it (it's been a while), but it seems to me that this means that Woman will only have the ability to provide for her family if she ACCEPTS that upon herself for the sake of her husband.

Does it work for everyone? I'm sure not. This is just my understanding of how it CAN work, and why this system doesn't give woman an extra "curse".


How does it work were a women is working because her husband can't earn enough money? If a women takes on the burden of being a breadwinner so her kids would have shoes or get a Jewish education ect..

Her husband is not learning full time many a times he is working full time. How does the curse work?
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DrMom




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Aug 24 2022, 1:00 am
happytobemom wrote:
My husband shared with me a shmooze he heard from the Lakewood Mashgiach R' Mattisyahu Salomon shlit"a in Yiddish many years ago. (I'm sharing that my husband retold this and I never heard it firsthand - I don't speak Yiddish - because I know I may not explain properly, this is all third hand. Just a disclaimer.)

The basic premise was this. Man was created to be fully provided for. It is not his natural ability to make a living. When Adam and Chava were cursed, along with the curses came the ability to withstand them. This enabled Man to be ABLE to make a living and everything that comes along with that, as well as Woman to be able to have children and withstand everything that that entails.

Woman was not given the ability to provide, and Man was not given the ability to birth children.

Lest you think I'm anti kollel here, we're still in a non-anon forum, and I did state quickly on the other thread that I am NOT anti kollel. (I baruch Hashem have been living kollel life for a large number of years, kein yirbu.) I'll try to explain, as best as I can.

The mashgiach explains that when a woman accepts upon herself the burden of being the breadwinner of the family so that her husband can learn, she is granted that gift that Adam was given along with his curse - the ABILITY to provide.

I don't know if this was quoted from the Mashgiach himself, or something I understood and took out of it (it's been a while), but it seems to me that this means that Woman will only have the ability to provide for her family if she ACCEPTS that upon herself for the sake of her husband.

Does it work for everyone? I'm sure not. This is just my understanding of how it CAN work, and why this system doesn't give woman an extra "curse".

This sounds like a bunch of apologetics to me.

Also, the same logic never seems to be applied to any other aspects of Jewish life.
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seeker




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Aug 24 2022, 3:04 am
BrachaVHatzlocha wrote:
I believe that if a woman truly holds in esteem a torah lifestyle and looks up to her husband learning, the respect she bestows on him should be enough that he shouldn't feel like he is letting her down (by not making $) .
I could be wrong. but as a woman who supported her husband for many years, I think that if there's a mutual agreement about this lifestyle, it can work for many people. Yes, my husband felt bad if I was working hard, but it was my pleasure as long as I could, because I knew I was a partner in his learning.

I agree with this but I also agree with OP in the sense that kollel has become a "lifestyle." The man has to be the real deal. There has to be a sense that he is taking responsibility and leadership - if not in money then in spirituality. I am not a believer that the man should be the dominat one across the board, I'm not a "surrendered wife", but I do think their nature is to need to provide in order to feel right about themselves. And regardless of what they're told in school/yeshiva/seminary, not every girl/woman can really see it that way and not every boy/man can provide in that way.

Also I think they need a plan for if it isn't working - she's doing her best but the family's needs are not met. Because THAT's when he starts to feel like a failure for not providing for his family, and she may also feel like a failure for not being able to support his learning "enough." When in reality this could be Hashem's way of telling them "I need you for a different mission now." I think someone who is truly grounded in learning and spirituality should know this. I think some educational settings prepare people for this and some do not.
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Chickensoupprof




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Aug 24 2022, 3:44 am
IMHO, Kollel is a luxury lifestyle that has if I recall correctly his roots post-war. The Kollel life begin to thrive when klal yisrael lost so many of the talmid chachamim and therefore people wanted to create more talmidei chachamim etc. And post-war in some countries there was a lot of social security way more than it was now. Our daas torah could learn full-time for decades in Kollel, while having a bit of social security, wife worked and having 9 children this was in the UK also when the NHS was doing much better then it does now. Life has gotten more expensive, and in most of the countries or in the USA some states social they cut down social security and health insurance (especially UK and EU).
I find it hard to believe that before WW II there were lots of men who would sit and learn. I find that hard to believe. I mean even the Chofetz Chaim worked in his own store, only in later years did he gets a full position in the shul/yeshivah.

We hardly read stories about normal men pre-war who had to earn a living, if I need to believe every Artscroll book, all the men in the alte welt were talmidei chachamim. If I look at my pre-war family (ok they were assimilated in the early 1920s already) they were totally illiterate in Hebrew and worked as bread deliverers, and shoemakers, things we do consider now as minimal jobs. This is also why I hate when especially Jews say that we are more intelligent than other folks, or more well-versed.... It's not. It was not the truth it is not the truth, I bet that only a rav of a small town prewar had a whole shas, sluchan aruch and mikros gedolos, I think normal people didn't have that.

Look at the talmidei chachamim we already have, and the big big Yeshivos across the world, we don't need to push men in the mold of the talmid chacham, long learning person if he is not that talented. The problem si real, if everyone goes to kollel then suddenly you have kollels where even I can go to attend the 'lower class' kollel so to speak because kollel is a status. Bh, my husband is not in kollel he is earning parnassa, he tries to learn sometimes yet, he doesn't like learning that much he grew up very yeshivsih, by marrying a BT he got interested more in a chareidi hashkafa yet we have our own taste in our lives, if we both had to mold in a certain lifestyle we would be unhappy. DH finds working much nicer, I find learning nicer.
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Java




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Aug 24 2022, 11:37 am
lamplighter wrote:
I find this with all my friends and relatives nothing to do with kollel. The ones where the wives make the money or most of the money, the husband feels less than, and it is a significant contributor to sholom bayis issues.

Really good point! I don't either think that this is necessarily restricted to kollel
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Java




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Aug 24 2022, 11:39 am
BrachaVHatzlocha wrote:
I believe that if a woman truly holds in esteem a torah lifestyle and looks up to her husband learning, the respect she bestows on him should be enough that he shouldn't feel like he is letting her down (by not making $) .
I could be wrong. but as a woman who supported her husband for many years, I think that if there's a mutual agreement about this lifestyle, it can work for many people. Yes, my husband felt bad if I was working hard, but it was my pleasure as long as I could, because I knew I was a partner in his learning.

It's more than just feeling bad about their wives working hard/needing to feel that their wives respect their learning... Its the feeling of not fulfilling their own responsibility towards their family.
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lovingmommy3417




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Aug 24 2022, 11:48 am
I don't think this is necessarily restricted to kollel, but it can breed this kind of environment. I think it spmewhat depends on the mentality of the guy. As for us my Husband when we got married started working on the side and making money regardless of being in Kollel. That led to us having kids and him working part time, learning part time. It was never much of a discussion he just knew this was what he had to do as a father. He is still almost 10 years married working most of the day, but still learns part time on Kollel. While yes I get annoyed at times because it does cut into helping out at home, I know this is not only what is best for him, but what is best for our family. He works very hard to find balance and I know a lot of other Kollel guys who are like him.
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Congresswoman




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Aug 24 2022, 11:51 am
The “wife really wants and appreciates” argument is typical seminary idealism.

In real life it’s baloney.

(Except in rare cases where the husband is not wired to be successful in business and will feel like a bigger failure working.)

(I’m all for husband being a stay at home dad if that is his calling. But he has to do SOMETHING to provide for the family. Learning isn’t providing.)


Last edited by Congresswoman on Wed, Aug 24 2022, 11:54 am; edited 1 time in total
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ShishKabob




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Aug 24 2022, 11:53 am
A man that works a steady job and learns seriously in the morning and then again in the evening many times learns more than someone that is in kollel full time.
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Chayalle




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Aug 24 2022, 12:14 pm
ShishKabob wrote:
A man that works a steady job and learns seriously in the morning and then again in the evening many times learns more than someone that is in kollel full time.


When that is true, I think the Kollel guy isn't really learning seriously enough.

My DH is out of the house before I get up, and learns most of the day. If someone who works was learning more than him, it would be someone who doesn't sleep.

I used to work with a guy who had learned for about 7 years and then went to work. He told me that he went to work at the point where he realized he wasn't really learning so many hours - he was doing more childcare to make up for the fact that his wife was working. He realized he'd be better off working and being Koveah Itim, and let his wife be home (or reduce her work hours).
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TravelHearter




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Aug 24 2022, 12:56 pm
Congresswoman wrote:
The “wife really wants and appreciates” argument is typical seminary idealism.

In real life it’s baloney.



Um…
What’s that supposed to mean?
My husband is in kollel. He works so hard and learns so intensely. He gets tested etc. he spends so many hours learning. He does get a lunch and dinner break (which he uses to do things usually) but he’s also out until really late, and wakes up really early. At this point he’s bH able to also learn his own thing before and after his kollel hours and that’s in addition. I respect him so much, and so do the people we interact with. He is giving to our home spiritually, and leads our shabbos table with Torah discussions etc. He is definitely in the giving role!
We both do what we have to do. He doesn’t treat kollel lightly, and we take turns taking off for a sick child etc. This is a joint partnership and relationship.
I can only speak for myself.
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