S/o unpopular opinions thread- kollel q

Alternative

Wed, Aug 24 2022, 1:03 pm

happytobemom wrote:

My husband shared with me a shmooze he heard from the Lakewood Mashgiach R' Mattisyahu Salomon shlit"a in Yiddish many years ago. (I'm sharing that my husband retold this and I never heard it firsthand - I don't speak Yiddish - because I know I may not explain properly, this is all third hand. Just a disclaimer.)

The basic premise was this. Man was created to be fully provided for. It is not his natural ability to make a living. When Adam and Chava were cursed, along with the curses came the ability to withstand them. This enabled Man to be ABLE to make a living and everything that comes along with that, as well as Woman to be able to have children and withstand everything that that entails.

Woman was not given the ability to provide, and Man was not given the ability to birth children.

I don't know if this was quoted from the Mashgiach himself, or something I understood and took out of it (it's been a while), but it seems to me that this means that Woman will only have the ability to provide for her family if she ACCEPTS that upon herself for the sake of her husband.

Does it work for everyone? I'm sure not. This is just my understanding of how it CAN work, and why this system doesn't give woman an extra "curse".

I haven’t noticed that kollel women are better breadwinners than non-kollel women (frum, secular, nonJewish).

Working in order to support your kollel husband doesn’t suddenly give you special career powers.

In fact, almost all the very successful career women I know are not from the kollel community.

PinkFridge

Wed, Aug 24 2022, 1:22 pm

Java wrote:

Spinning off my own post- curious to hear dissenting opinions on this one!
I honestly feel like even if a guy is helping out around the house in other ways, not being the one to bring in the money is really demoralizing.
(I have personal experience in the kollel 'system', this is what I've seen and experienced.)

Maybe. But for some, especially if they do bring in some money on the side, and do get some kollel check, it can be a healthy partnership and work.

PinkFridge

Wed, Aug 24 2022, 1:23 pm

alwayssmiling wrote:

While I've been doing it for 4 years now, it's not something I would encourage others to do. It worked by me as long as I didn't have children. Now that we have our first on the way, dh is thinking of doing half learning/working and seeing how it goes from there.

Hatzlacha! What a great idea. It might be sustainable long term or it might be a transition. Either way, may you see bracha, even if it doesn't work out.
People don't realize that when they see someone in kollel/someone working in some capacity these aren't necessarily 2 different people but the same person at different stages in life.

mig100

Wed, Aug 24 2022, 1:25 pm

ShishKabob wrote:

A man that works a steady job and learns seriously in the morning and then again in the evening many times learns more than someone that is in kollel full time.

Really? How often?

The typical kollel guy lets say learns 8-10 hours Sunday - thursday?

Which type of steady jobs do you know of that allow nearly that many hours?

How many men do you know who are able to learn more than 3-4 hours (even that is difficult to squeeze) with a decent paying job? what do they do?

I really want to know where you can find such jobs?

Last edited by mig100 on Wed, Aug 24 2022, 1:26 pm; edited 1 time in total

PinkFridge

Wed, Aug 24 2022, 1:26 pm

GLUE wrote:

How does it work were a women is working because her husband can't earn enough money? If a women takes on the burden of being a breadwinner so her kids would have shoes or get a Jewish education ect..

Her husband is not learning full time many a times he is working full time. How does the curse work?

With the advances in technology - and I'm going back to the Industrial Revolution - life has become more complicated. We're not talking luxuries. We're talking tuition, braces, etc. Yes, 2 incomes are becoming necessary. But it would be great if the woman's could be part time or lower pressure.

PinkFridge

Wed, Aug 24 2022, 1:27 pm

seeker wrote:

I agree with this but I also agree with OP in the sense that kollel has become a "lifestyle." The man has to be the real deal. There has to be a sense that he is taking responsibility and leadership - if not in money then in spirituality. I am not a believer that the man should be the dominat one across the board, I'm not a "surrendered wife", but I do think their nature is to need to provide in order to feel right about themselves. And regardless of what they're told in school/yeshiva/seminary, not every girl/woman can really see it that way and not every boy/man can provide in that way.

Also I think they need a plan for if it isn't working - she's doing her best but the family's needs are not met. Because THAT's when he starts to feel like a failure for not providing for his family, and she may also feel like a failure for not being able to support his learning "enough." When in reality this could be Hashem's way of telling them "I need you for a different mission now." I think someone who is truly grounded in learning and spirituality should know this. I think some educational settings prepare people for this and some do not.

Yes. Transitioning is really important. In the early years of kollel, after the war for a few decades, a book like Ben Torah for Life wasn't the necessity it is now. It was a given, it was a fact of life.

PinkFridge

Wed, Aug 24 2022, 1:29 pm

TravelHearter wrote:

Um…
What’s that supposed to mean?
My husband is in kollel. He works so hard and learns so intensely. He gets tested etc. he spends so many hours learning. He does get a lunch and dinner break (which he uses to do things usually) but he’s also out until really late, and wakes up really early. At this point he’s bH able to also learn his own thing before and after his kollel hours and that’s in addition. I respect him so much, and so do the people we interact with. He is giving to our home spiritually, and leads our shabbos table with Torah discussions etc. He is definitely in the giving role!
We both do what we have to do. He doesn’t treat kollel lightly, and we take turns taking off for a sick child etc. This is a joint partnership and relationship.
I can only speak for myself.

I don't think it's a bad thing that kollelim are understanding about sick care. I've seen people who are the real deal and yeah, the fathers may have leeway and it's fine. BUT in the business world, unless someone's working remotely, both parents may not have that leeway and it gets complicated.

Fox

Wed, Aug 24 2022, 1:32 pm

A bit of history is in order.

The reason that kollel is encouraged is to rebuild the Jewish world after the Holocaust. Not only were several generations of talmidei chachomim lost, but several generations of learned baalabatim were lost, too. The levels of learning outside of Europe were considerably less.

So our gedolim encouraged kollel as a way to increase the overall dedication to Torah as well as produce new generations of talmidei chachomim and learned baalabatim.
_________________________________________

Despite the fact that all of us consider "kollel life" to be something that's a permanent feature of Jewish life, it is actually an emergency measure. Arguments against kollel are like saying, "Don't break the car window to escape if your car is submerged in water. You'll have a broken window." Um, yes.

Being pro-kollel does not mean believing it's a necessity for everyone, and it doesn't mean that men should necessarily learn in kollel indefinitely. When I got married in 1985, it was considered admirable for a man to learn for a year after marriage; two years was considered mesiras nefesh deserving of praise. There were less than a handful of men who learned for more than two years, and most had unusual situations, such as highly profitable part-time endeavors or wives who happened to earn a great deal.

A word about "support": My DH learned for nine years, and I vividly recall the one couple in his kollel who were "supported." The wife's family gave them $300 a month. Now, granted, $300 was worth more then than it is now, but not that much more. No one owned a home or even rented a house. One barely-working car. Zero travel. A lot of thrift shopping.

The increase in living standards that occurred in the 90s in the frum veldt affected kollel life negatively, as well.

But it's important to remember that we are simply links in the chain of Yiddishkeit, and our generations are rebuilding what was lost. In emergencies, you take desperate measures. Kollel is the desperate measure our gedolim took, fully aware that there would be drawbacks.

PinkFridge

Wed, Aug 24 2022, 1:39 pm

Fox wrote:

But it's important to remember that we are simply links in the chain of Yiddishkeit, and our generations are rebuilding what was lost. In emergencies, you take desperate measures. Kollel is the desperate measure our gedolim took, fully aware that there would be drawbacks.

A rav I know who got married about the same time said that anyone who was in kollel for 5 years was clearly on some serious klei kodesh trajectory.
And re desperate measures:
https://www.jewishmediaresourc.....aphor

happytobemom

Wed, Aug 24 2022, 10:24 pm

TravelHearter wrote:

Beautifully said.

(Once I saw the arguments coming in, I stepped out. No way I can "defend" my views on kollel, nor do I want to try.)

Congresswoman

Wed, Aug 24 2022, 11:14 pm

TravelHearter wrote:

I’ll double down.

Learning might be adding, enhancing etc. but it is NOT providing.

The stereotypical man has an urge to provide.

(There are others that aren’t your typical man and that’s fine too.)

TravelHearter

Wed, Aug 24 2022, 11:58 pm

Why does providing have to be financial? Can it be spiritual?

I really think there is a mindset involved. My husband and I think of it as a joint partnership. He does get paid. Not as much as if he would be working a regular full-time job, but still something significant. We don’t think of it as who makes more; it’s we both do what we gotta do.
He has plenty of other ways of fulfilling his role. He buys me treats, gets me gifts, and gives to me in many other ways. In our relationship he definitely is the giver in many ways and I really don’t think there’s any lack from him being in kollel. I’m astute enough to have felt it.

PinkFridge

Thu, Aug 25 2022, 8:14 am

Congresswoman wrote:

There are two levels of providing: service, and family.
The man in kollel might be providing a valuable service to the community by setting the example of serious learning, by learning with community members, by tutoring, by gradually growing in areas of knowledge that are of service to the community. He might become a rebbi one day, he might become a posek, etc. Or he might end up working outside a Torah framework (but as a ben Torah). But right now it's working for everyone.

Many communities have seen tremendous growth by opening kollelim. As such the kollel members, when they are doing their job right, are seen as community assets.

Now, whatever stipend and side money they might be making it's likely not enough to float the family. (They might be getting a tuition break as part of a package if their kollel is connected to a school, but again, still not enough.) So the wife has to work too. Or there might be a Zevulun somewhere. Might this man feel he's not providing enough?

Depends. He might be providing a valuable community service. He might be doing a LOT at home and for family. He's not feeling like, oh, important me, the community service man, whose work is so so important. He just knows that this is how he's spending his time and he fulfills his obligations with integrity.

It CAN work. I realize that this isn't every person in kollel. I'm just saying that this does exist.

Bruria

Thu, Aug 25 2022, 10:11 am

As much as a wife is appreciative of her dh and accepts the kollels lifestyle, it is very hard for anyone to take care of all the kids, be pregnant and provide parnasa at the same time.
Even a tzadeket of the highest level will get burnt out at some point.
I feel it's safer if both parents provide, even if each does part time, so no one gets burnt out. Plus maternity leave doesn't pay much and it happens so very often for many.

ShishKabob

Thu, Aug 25 2022, 10:20 am

mig100 wrote:

It's not the job. It's the person that really is machshiv Torah and makes it a priority to learn. Of course his wife has to be on board too.

Chayalle

Thu, Aug 25 2022, 11:08 am

Bruria wrote:

Wacky fact - combination of lower taxes, short-term disability plan from work - my take-home pay from maternity leave was actually higher. Unfortunately, it did not happen so very often for me.

Kollel life does not preclude a husband who helps out at home.

Fox

Thu, Aug 25 2022, 1:21 pm

Congresswoman wrote:

I'm not sure why you see this as particularly kollel-related.

There are lots of different situations in which men can't provide -- either permanently or for a period of time. There are also lots of different situations in which men are not providing for a particular period of time while they pursue some type of education or training.

People adjust their roles and expectations, and healthy couples find ways they can compensate for one another's needs, goals, and limitations.

I always find these arguments a little ironic: DH was in kollel for 9 years, during which we were financially stable if not affluent. However, over a decade after leaving kollel and setting up a successful business, he became seriously ill, and we lost almost everything.

No responsible rosh kollel will encourage someone to stay in kollel if his wife and family are suffering. Nor is someone a failure for "only" learning 6 months or a year in kollel. If kollel doesn't work for a couple, then they shouldn't be in kollel.