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Addressing Chutzpah
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amother




OP
 

Post Mon, Aug 29 2022, 7:25 am
I think my response causes a negative cycle where my middle daughter and I just end up arguing. She is 8 and wonderful and vivacious and spirited but yikes! Everytime I ask her to help with something age appropriate (pick up the barbies, let us set the table for shabbos) she automatically responds with an excuse and attitude.... I am not done playing, I am hungry, younger sister isn't helping, you are so mean to me, etc etc. I end up getting so frustrated and saying "everytime I ask this of you this is your response" then she ends up crying or screaming, I end up yelling and around and around it goes. My older son is a dream and understands cleaning up after himself, helping a bit with mommy and rarely answers back. My youngest daughter also responds like my older daughter but not as bad. The middle child in particular though..... AHHH...
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amother




Geranium
 

Post Mon, Aug 29 2022, 7:44 am
It's up to you to stop the cycle.

Give her more wiggle room to do the things you ask her to- "Before you do x(a fun activity she likes, or just a part of her routine), you have to do y(the chores you want her to do)"

I do this with my strong minded daughter for basically any non-preferred request I make. Otherwise it just ends up with lots of crying and kvetching and whining and upset-ness.

For example:
Please clean up your room. You don't have to do it right now but it must be done before lunch time. Do you want a timer to remind you? (I'll put a timer on the stove or my phone for her)

Another thing I do is make a list for her if it is multiple things. She can cross them off as she does them.
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mha3484




 
 
 
 

Post Mon, Aug 29 2022, 7:51 am
I really like to Colloborative Problem Solving Model for this. I have multiple very strong willed children and this has been the most helpful. My boys school uses it also.

https://livesinthebalance.org/.....lies/
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amother




Banana
 

Post Mon, Aug 29 2022, 8:18 am
amother OP wrote:
I think my response causes a negative cycle where my middle daughter and I just end up arguing. She is 8 and wonderful and vivacious and spirited but yikes! Everytime I ask her to help with something age appropriate (pick up the barbies, let us set the table for shabbos) she automatically responds with an excuse and attitude.... I am not done playing, I am hungry, younger sister isn't helping, you are so mean to me, etc etc. I end up getting so frustrated and saying "everytime I ask this of you this is your response" then she ends up crying or screaming, I end up yelling and around and around it goes. My older son is a dream and understands cleaning up after himself, helping a bit with mommy and rarely answers back. My youngest daughter also responds like my older daughter but not as bad. The middle child in particular though..... AHHH...

So if children don't comply automatically, that's called chutzpah?
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amother




Apple
 

Post Mon, Aug 29 2022, 8:19 am
"The explosive child"
"How to talk so kids will listen and listen so kidd will talk"
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amother




OP
 

Post Mon, Aug 29 2022, 8:22 am
amother Banana wrote:
So if children don't comply automatically, that's called chutzpah?

Lol no, trust me I ask the bare minimum. Screaming at mommy that she is the meanest mommy ever or just completely ignoring after 3 asks is chutzpa.
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amother




Banana
 

Post Mon, Aug 29 2022, 8:24 am
amother OP wrote:
Lol no, trust me I ask the bare minimum. Screaming at mommy that she is the meanest mommy ever or just completely ignoring after 3 asks is chutzpa.

Perhaps there's a better way to do things before it gets to screaming.

Can you describe what typically happens?
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#BestBubby




 
 
 
 

Post Mon, Aug 29 2022, 8:34 am
amother Banana wrote:
So if children don't comply automatically, that's called chutzpah?


Yes, minor children are Halachicly obligated to obey parent's reasonable demands.

Just like they have to keep Shobbos and Kosher.

And it's much more than not "Automatically complying" the child is refusing and
is disrespectful to mother - calling her "mean".
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#BestBubby




 
 
 
 

Post Mon, Aug 29 2022, 8:37 am
The Mother AND FATHER, should have a meeting with the daughter and explain to her the HALACHAH
that when a parent tells you to do something, YOU DO IT!

If there is some veeeeeery important reason, why child finds this very difficult (I have a Major test tomorrow), then the child should RESPECTFULLY (no screaming) ask,

"This is very hard for me. May I explain?"
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BrisketBoss




 
 
 
 

Post Mon, Aug 29 2022, 8:53 am
Very convenient, BB. When someone is having trouble meeting an expectation, instead of helping them solve the problem you can just say "Well you have to." Amazing.
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amother




Banana
 

Post Mon, Aug 29 2022, 9:07 am
#BestBubby wrote:
Yes, minor children are Halachicly obligated to obey parent's reasonable demands.

Just like they have to keep Shobbos and Kosher.

And it's much more than not "Automatically complying" the child is refusing and
is disrespectful to mother - calling her "mean".

Minor children are busy coloring and building blocks and sucking their thumbs and needing help in the bathroom. They don't care what you are saying unless it looks pretty or tastes yummy.
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#BestBubby




 
 
 
 

Post Mon, Aug 29 2022, 9:07 am
BrisketBoss wrote:
Very convenient, BB. When someone is having trouble meeting an expectation, instead of helping them solve the problem you can just say "Well you have to." Amazing.


BrisketBoss, I just said that if the child has a reason why they cannot comply they
should RESPECTFULLY request permission to explain why they cannot.
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#BestBubby




 
 
 
 

Post Mon, Aug 29 2022, 9:09 am
amother Banana wrote:
Minor children are busy coloring and building blocks and sucking their thumbs and needing help in the bathroom. They don't care what you are saying unless it looks pretty or tastes yummy.


OP is talking about an EIGHT YEAR OLD, not a two year old.

and OP has an Obligation to be MECHANECH her children to keep Halachah
which includes Kibbud Av V'Eim - which is not just any Mitzvah but one of the
Aseres Hadibros - in the same category as Keeping Shobbos!!!
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#BestBubby




 
 
 
 

Post Mon, Aug 29 2022, 9:10 am
amother OP wrote:
Lol no, trust me I ask the bare minimum. Screaming at mommy that she is the meanest mommy ever or just completely ignoring after 3 asks is chutzpa.


It is definitely egregious chutzpah

1. To Refuse to obey

2. to SCREAM at a mother!!!! Surprised
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mha3484




 
 
 
 

Post Mon, Aug 29 2022, 9:12 am
The problem with that approach is that not all children at age 8 have the skills to express themselves respectfully. We need to teach them how to communicate their needs before we label a behavior chutzpah. I like the method above for that I am sure there are other good ideas too but we cant punish a kid for a skill they dont yet have. I have done that before and it didnt end well.

Now when my kids don't respond how I want I first ask myself if my request was 1) realistic and 2) communicated clearly with age appropriate directions. 98% of the time it was not. Once I figured that out my kids became a lot more compliant.
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amother




Banana
 

Post Mon, Aug 29 2022, 9:14 am
#BestBubby wrote:
OP is talking about an EIGHT YEAR OLD, not a two year old.

and OP has an Obligation to be MECHANECH her children to keep Halachah
which includes Kibbud Av V'Eim - which is not just any Mitzvah but one of the
Aseres Hadibros - in the same category as Keeping Shobbos!!!

That is your method of gaining cooperation.
There are others.
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#BestBubby




 
 
 
 

Post Mon, Aug 29 2022, 9:16 am
mha3484 wrote:
The problem with that approach is that not all children at age 8 have the skills to express themselves respectfully. We need to teach them how to communicate their needs before we label a behavior chutzpah. I like the method above for that I am sure there are other good ideas too but we cant punish a kid for a skill they dont yet have. I have done that before and it didnt end well.

Now when my kids don't respond how I want I first ask myself if my request was 1) realistic and 2) communicated clearly with age appropriate directions. 98% of the time it was not. Once I figured that out my kids became a lot more compliant.


Good point.

So when OP's daughter starts protesting OP should model how to ask respectfully:

Mommy, may I have 5 more minutes to play, and then I will clean up?

or even:

Mommy, I find it too hard to do the whole cleanup. Can I have some help?
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amother




Topaz
 

Post Mon, Aug 29 2022, 9:21 am
#BestBubby wrote:
OP is talking about an EIGHT YEAR OLD, not a two year old.

and OP has an Obligation to be MECHANECH her children to keep Halachah
which includes Kibbud Av V'Eim - which is not just any Mitzvah but one of the
Aseres Hadibros - in the same category as Keeping Shobbos!!!


Of course 8 year old children should listen. But they often don’t. And that’s normal.

My job is to be mechanech them, in a way that works. Young children are still very self-centered. It’s a work in progress.
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amother




OP
 

Post Mon, Aug 29 2022, 9:24 am
amother Banana wrote:
Perhaps there's a better way to do things before it gets to screaming.

Can you describe what typically happens?

An example
LOL dolls are spilled out all over living room after playing a few hours. Shabbos is in a few hours.
Me: Sara* sweety can you please pick up the LOL dolls
Sara*: I'm still playing mommy
Me: I know but shabbos is really soon and we have guests tonight
Sara: I am hungry mom
Me: Sara please I ask you to pick it up
Sara: But Yehudis** played too and she isn't helping
Me: Sara PLEASE Pick it up!!
Sara: MOMMY SEE you are screaming at me. I knew it, you hate me!! STORMS OFF TO ROOM screaming.
**End Scene**
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#BestBubby




 
 
 
 

Post Mon, Aug 29 2022, 9:28 am
Sara, spoke disrespectfully BUT - maybe she had a point about Yehudis.

How old is Yehudis?

PS Sara should lose her Shobbos Dessert for refusing to listen to Mommy and for raising her voice to
Mommy.
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