Rumpsringa?? If we had it would teens come back???

louche

Tue, May 27 2008, 9:04 am

Mama Bear wrote:

cassandra wrote:

MorahS wrote:

But back to the question -

Do you think that the year in Israel in yeshiva/seminary is at all similar to rumspringa? I have my own thoughts on the issue, but I'm curious to hear what others have to say.

How can a year in a supervised religious environment be anything like Rumspringa?

it's not quite as supervised as you think. the young boys and girls manage to get around and ahve fun, sometimes with dire consequences. it's their first time away from their parents' eyes...

Calling the year in Israel analogous to rumspringa is out and out lashon hara. Those who get into trouble are doing so in spite of and in defiance of supervision, not engaging in a community-sanctioned free period of experimentation and exploration.

In theory, if we've given our children a good grounding in mussar and values, and send them to a halfway decent institute, they'll be strong enough to stay on the relatively straght and narrow. Does this mean our 18-year-olds will never visit a neighborhood "hangout" that we'd rather they didn't? of course not. . Does it mean our daughters will never talk to a member of the opposite gender who isn't a rav or a mashgiach or that our sons will never look at a girl or a bus shelter advertisement featuring a girl in a bikini? Also not. But just as you must eventually let your child cross the street by himself, choose his clothes by himself, manage his money by himself, so, too, you must eventually allow your child to experience living away from parental supervison, make his own decisions and his own mistakes. Your job for the first 18 years is to bring him up in such a way that the truly evil aspects of society will horrify him and that his mistakes will be minor and have no serious repercussions.

Last edited by louche on Tue, May 27 2008, 9:06 am; edited 1 time in total

louche

Tue, May 27 2008, 9:05 am

mama-star wrote:

there are many things they do which I find downright inappropriate for "godly people."

1. such as?
2. for "godly people" or for frum jews?

Mama Bear

Tue, May 27 2008, 9:05 am

they are not shomer negiah but I dont thinkt hey have premarital relations. they date the 'normal' way by getting to know their neighbors, they go out in a 'carriage' and whatever, but there's no teenage pregnancies there...

Tehilla

Tue, May 27 2008, 9:24 am

not that you've heard of MB

louche

Tue, May 27 2008, 9:32 am

In any case, "rumspringa" wouldn't be possible for frum people. We'd be giving them permission to do things that Hashem forbids. What can we possibly allow them to do that wouldn't be an actual sin?

1. Communites with a specified levush could allow boys to wear modern dress and could allow girls to wear colors or styles that are not untzniusdik but that differ from the norms of their particular community.

2. Communites with very specific menus for specific occasions could allow boys and girls to go wild with non-traditional cuisine.

3. They could learn to drive.

4. They could be allowed to study secular subjects.

I could list other things but I'd be sure to incense a good portion of this board who would say that even the items listed above are a sin.

Raisin

Tue, May 27 2008, 9:59 am

cassandra wrote:

MorahS wrote:

How can a year in a supervised religious environment be anything like Rumspringa?

I didin't go to israel, but how can a year in seminary or yeshiva be anything like Rumpaspringa? It's meant to be a year of growth and learning, assuming you've found a good place.

mimivan

Tue, May 27 2008, 10:04 am

I think the allusion was to the way some kids kind of go wild here, unfortunately...

I've seen it...my dh teaches at a yeshiva for at risk youth, but I've also seen some kids from regular seminaries and yeshivas hanging out where they shouldn't be...drinking, smoking and generally hanging out (this is in Yirushalaim)

I don't believe this is lashon hara, I am not naming names or institutions and I am certainly not talking about ALL yeshiva and seminary kids, but it is something people should be aware of before sending their kids to Israel for the year Wink

I personally would send my kids to Tzfat if I were in chutz and wanted to send my kid to Israel...unless I felt 100% sure that they would not get into trouble. The temptation can be very compelling here and in some places, significant peer pressure to "hang out"

louche

Tue, May 27 2008, 10:11 am

Clarissa wrote:

Now where did I put my Ben Gay?

Same place I put my walker.

mama-star

Tue, May 27 2008, 3:13 pm

mama bear, an engaged amish couple is allowed ro spend the night together. I think that could lead to premarital relations!

Fox

Tue, May 27 2008, 5:16 pm

According to what I've read, there is as much misinformation out there about the Amish and Rumspringa as there is about frum Yidden.

There is a website run by an ad hoc group called the National Committee for Amish Religious Freedom that is run by people sympathetic to and/or close to various Amish orders. The URL is http://www.holycrosslivonia.or......htm; however, use caution in proceeding. There is a great deal of information about their religious beliefs that you may want to avoid.

That said, they take great exception to the media portrayal of Rumspringa:

Dr. Joe Wittner, who was raised Old Order Amish to the age of 16 makes these comments:

First, I realize that the Amish practice of "rumspringa"(German, meaning "running around") has always been confusing for non-Amish and has been made even more perplexing by the recent TV Show, Amish in the City and the made for TV documentary; The Devil's Playground. Interestingly, rumspringa is seldom written about in any detail by those individuals who truly know the Amish and write about them (I give it less than a page in my book). This is due to the fact that it really does not exist as described by the mainstream press, screen play writers and others.

To my knowledge, no Amish church has ever officially sanctioned the practice of rumspringa as described in the two shows mentioned above. And, I am convinced that Amish parents would never tell one of their children to (simply because they turned a certain age--16 in most Amish communities), "explore the world!" However, this is exactly what is indicated in the Amish in the City TV show and the documentary The Devil's Playground. Neither show, in my opinion, facilitated an accurate description of rumspringa. In addition, in my opinion, neither show can be considered as a fair and balanced portrayal of rumspringa as the Amish kids in the TV show and those participating in the documentary were not really true Amish, in the strictest sense of the word.

In sum, to the Amish, a youth in rumspringa is age 16 and beyond and not married, is in the "running around" (rumspringa) stage which translates into going to the sings and dating--nothing more! Yet, this unwritten and non-sanctioned church practice, in my opinion, differentiates the Amish from a cult as their youth may decide to select this exploratory experience and explore the "world." However, in actuality, very few do. I would venture that 99% of them live at home during rumspringa age. Yes, some (very few) will go into town for a night, may have a transistor radio under their buggy seat, may change into non-Amish clothes and may sneak into a movie theater. Sadly, like so many other things in our society, the latter is what the media folks tend to focus on as this makes for the best "reading."

Dr. Wittner indicates that "rumspringa" is really an age range rather than a set of activities and that the biggest difference for most Amish is that they are given a bit more leeway and independence by their parents.

cassandra

Tue, May 27 2008, 5:24 pm

Fox wrote:

However, in actuality, very few do. I would venture that 99% of them live at home during rumspringa age. Yes, some (very few) will go into town for a night, may have a transistor radio under their buggy seat, may change into non-Amish clothes and may sneak into a movie theater. Sadly, like so many other things in our society, the latter is what the media folks tend to focus on as this makes for the best "reading."

That makes a lot of sense. My first response when I saw this thread was "I probably wouldn't have done it anyway."

Crayon210

Tue, May 27 2008, 5:48 pm

mimivan wrote:

I personally would send my kids to Tzfat if I were in chutz and wanted to send my kid to Israel...unless I felt 100% sure that they would not get into trouble.

Why is Tzfas better than J-m?

morahaviva

Tue, May 27 2008, 6:16 pm

I went out with a guy who dressed the dress, but it turned out he was "on vacation" from frumkeit, but since he lived and worked in a frum community, he kept the dress, which I felt was decietfull to me.. now the guy is a well known singer in the jewish music world!! If only they knew.....

tzipp

Tue, May 27 2008, 6:57 pm

Mama Bear wrote:

cassandra wrote:

MorahS wrote:

How can a year in a supervised religious environment be anything like Rumspringa?

it's not quite as supervised as you think. the young boys and girls manage to get around and ahve fun, sometimes with dire consequences. it's their first time away from their parents' eyes...

Actually, the whole point of rumspringa is that if someone chooses not to join it is ok. The Amish (actually Menonite from which the Amish broke away from because they wanted to be stricter) religion was started around the concept that a person must choose his religion. Rumspringa is the time for them to "exlpore" and consider thier decision. The shunning happens if someone chooses to be baptized and then drops to religion.

It is an interesting concept but so the opposite of yiddishkiet, we believe you don't have a choice, no matter what you actually do, you are still a Jew. You can't just decide to be non jewish.

I think that the Islamic custom of a bris at thirteen is similar, but not sure...

louche

Wed, May 28 2008, 11:19 am

tzipp wrote:

Actually, the whole point of rumspringa is that if someone chooses not to join it is ok. ..
It is an interesting concept but so the opposite of yiddishkiet, we believe you don't have a choice, no matter what you actually do, you are still a Jew. You can't just decide to be non jewish.

I think it's more like the idea that if you're converted as a baby, when you get to bar/bat mitzvah age you have to choose whether or not to continue as a Jew. However, we stack the deck to make sure the youth does remain Jewish.

except for giyur, we have nothing like baptism, whereas the Amish practice adult baptism. The youth aren't baptised at a specific age, but each one decides when he's ready. Since they're not technically Amish till baptism, there's nothing technically wrong with their doing non-Amish things beforehand. Then they make an informed decision whether to be baptised and follow all Amish ways, or not to be baptised and to leave the community.

cassandra

Wed, May 28 2008, 1:17 pm

Apologies to louche for not fully reading her post before I responded thereby making myself wholly redundant.

Last edited by cassandra on Wed, May 28 2008, 3:09 pm; edited 1 time in total

mimivan

Wed, May 28 2008, 1:26 pm

Crayon210 wrote:

mimivan wrote:

I personally would send my kids to Tzfat if I were in chutz and wanted to send my kid to Israel...unless I felt 100% sure that they would not get into trouble.

Why is Tzfas better than J-m?

They can get into more trouble in J-m...but some manage in Tfas as well, although it is a bit more of a challenge.

louche

Wed, May 28 2008, 1:47 pm

Kids who want to get in trouble can always find a way, even in Alcatraz, and those who don't want to can find a way not to.

Clarissa

Wed, May 28 2008, 1:51 pm

louche wrote:

Kids who want to get in trouble can always find a way, even in Alcatraz, and those who don't want to can find a way not to.

Alcatraz is no longer a prison, it's a tourist attraction. Still, I suppose kids can get into some trouble by disrupting their guided tour.

louche

Wed, May 28 2008, 1:54 pm

Alcatraz is what we call ds yeshiva. It really looks like a prison, minus the Barb Dwyer. Call it a minimum-security prison.