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Hourly rate for senior programmer in Israel
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amother
OP


 

Post Wed, Sep 07 2022, 3:25 am
I posted this in the Israel forum but didn't get any responses so posting here as well -

I am working for an american company which has no entity in Israel so I am getting paid as a consultant with no benefits or vacation even though I work regular hours and have been working there ~6 years. (I'm in programming ~20 years). Its not a huge hitech company. I would guess they have around 50-75 employees. and its owned by a frum guy. I believe I am quite underpaid and would like to request a raise. Any idea what the going rate would would be for a senior programmer consultant in Israel? like not the rate for a one off job but for an ongoing hourly position. My boss is a nice guy but very conservative (frugal), hence no entity in Israel. I only got 1 raise in the last 6 years.
TIA!
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amother
Mimosa


 

Post Wed, Sep 07 2022, 6:16 am
What does your company do?
What type of programming do you do? Languages, systems, web, mobile?
How many hours per week do you work?
You are senior in years there or you manage other employees?
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amother
OP


 

Post Wed, Sep 07 2022, 6:21 am
php - web mostly. I work around 25 hours a week. I do not manage anyone.
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amother
Cherry


 

Post Wed, Sep 07 2022, 6:48 am
Usually such a position would be a salary - not hourly.

From what I here a senior developer without a team working under them should make 20k-30k nis a month with all Israeli benefits (significant amount at that point).
This is if you have a degree in Computer Science if you did a boot camp/seminar teudah they can get away with paying you less.

The thing is very few Israeli companies would have a senior developer working only 25 hours a week - these salaries are for more like 35- 40 hour weeks.
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amother
OP


 

Post Wed, Sep 07 2022, 7:09 am
I have a degree. I agree it should be a monthly salary and I wish it was. What is keeping me at this job is that its part time and flexible. but still I shouldn't be taken advantage of by my super frugal boss.

It would be hard to compare to a global salary other than saying I work around 2/3 time so the gross salary should be 1/3 less than what you specify. however, considering the fact that I don't get benefits it should be higher (around 30%) to compensate for that. comes out I should be actually getting the same salary say 200-300 nis per hour to net 20-30k. I'm trying to figure out what to ask for in my upcoming review (first ever in this company due to the informality of how things are run - in their Israel branch at least).
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amother
Electricblue


 

Post Wed, Sep 07 2022, 9:46 am
I have a serious bone to pick with American heimeshe bosses that take advantage of talented workers in Israel. I am currently in the same situation. And I am working on leaving. They get away with a salary that is the fraction of what they would pay a local worker and they don't give the benefits israelis get. No pension, No keren hishtalmut, No paid vacation, No paid sick days, No Maternity leave, No food. Its the best of both worlds for them.
My suggestion is you put yourself out there. Put yourself out on linkedin and send your resume to companies that are hiring. When recruiters ask you what you salary range is give a number that is a bit high. When they ask you if you are flexible, say that you are if they are willing to be flexible if they are flexible with hours.
Its important to note that your english is a serious advantage in the Israeli Hi-tech world.
And just so that you are aware-
Salaries are usually around 23-33K (nis) a month. 9 hour work days. Hybrid work model. 17 paid vacation days, most companies will go beyond the letter of the law and pay for your sick days starting from the first day(by law it starts on the second day) so in total it works out to around 20 sick days, around 550 nis towards food (usually on tenbis). Yearly vacation with work, max keren hishtalmut, computer and headphones, gifts twice a year (Rosh hashana and pesach)
And obviously you will receive any benefit that Israeli law provides once you are getting a tlush.
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amother
Electricblue


 

Post Wed, Sep 07 2022, 9:58 am
Another option is to find another remote job that doesn't take advantage of you on both ends of the candle.
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amother
Electricblue


 

Post Wed, Sep 07 2022, 10:16 am
amother OP wrote:
I posted this in the Israel forum but didn't get any responses so posting here as well -

I am working for an american company which has no entity in Israel so I am getting paid as a consultant with no benefits or vacation even though I work regular hours and have been working there ~6 years. (I'm in programming ~20 years). Its not a huge hitech company. I would guess they have around 50-75 employees. and its owned by a frum guy. I believe I am quite underpaid and would like to request a raise. Any idea what the going rate would would be for a senior programmer consultant in Israel? like not the rate for a one off job but for an ongoing hourly position. My boss is a nice guy but very conservative (frugal), hence no entity in Israel. I only got 1 raise in the last 6 years.
TIA!


Since you are a consultant with that much experience you would be on the higher end of the salary range.
Providing an employee with flexible hours is not an excuse to be stingy with raises. A yearly review is a very basic thing and it ideally HE should be the one that makes it happen.
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amother
Cherry


 

Post Wed, Sep 07 2022, 2:14 pm
amother Electricblue wrote:
I have a serious bone to pick with American heimeshe bosses that take advantage of talented workers in Israel. I am currently in the same situation. And I am working on leaving. They get away with a salary that is the fraction of what they would pay a local worker and they don't give the benefits israelis get. No pension, No keren hishtalmut, No paid vacation, No paid sick days, No Maternity leave, No food. Its the best of both worlds for them.
My suggestion is you put yourself out there. Put yourself out on linkedin and send your resume to companies that are hiring. When recruiters ask you what you salary range is give a number that is a bit high. When they ask you if you are flexible, say that you are if they are willing to be flexible if they are flexible with hours.
Its important to note that your english is a serious advantage in the Israeli Hi-tech world.
And just so that you are aware-
Salaries are usually around 23-33K (nis) a month. 9 hour work days. Hybrid work model. 17 paid vacation days, most companies will go beyond the letter of the law and pay for your sick days starting from the first day(by law it starts on the second day) so in total it works out to around 20 sick days, around 550 nis towards food (usually on tenbis). Yearly vacation with work, max keren hishtalmut, computer and headphones, gifts twice a year (Rosh hashana and pesach)
And obviously you will receive any benefit that Israeli law provides once you are getting a tlush.


Thing is very very few Israeli Hi- tech companies are ok with you working a 25 hour work week.
So I don't think you can compare.
You also cant compare to a consultant salary - those are usually higher because the worker is an Atzmai and expects to have dead times between jobs (my grandfather did this for years)

I agree that you should put yourself out there - there is a serious market for experienced and talented developers . The starting positions are flooded - but a senior developer should have options.
Even if you don't get an offer that you want you can use the real life offers to negotiate salaries.

The other thing you should look into is what he would need to pay you in the states. I have heard starting salaries there are 70k$ are + benefits , you would be making over 100k by now.
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amother
OP


 

Post Wed, Sep 07 2022, 2:49 pm
electricblue - you are so right. I even know what I am missing out on because I used to work for a big international company so I got all that plus stock options.
thanks everyone so much for your replies - the question is how to diplomatically present this to my boss. and do I need to have other offers to ask for the raise.
re consultant salary - this is exactly the problem - I don't get enough hourly to be worth working as a consultant. I was trying to decide how much I can reasonably ask for.
Why do I feel so powerless to change this? My direct manager has no actual power in this regard so though I have asked her for change its useless. The entire change she has agreed to (presumably with her boss's agreement) is to begin having yearly reviews. I need to go the boss directly.
I am sure he knows he is getting off cheap with his workers in israel. but how can I point this out without being contentious.
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byisrael




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Sep 07 2022, 3:05 pm
Well you need to decide what happens if they don't agree to give you a raise

Will you then look for other positions?

I think that when you come with other offers on the table you come with a certain confidence, and it shows you are serious.

I think that if you say something like:
I have found I love working here because of ------- but I got these offers and I can't afford to stay unless I get a comparable offer.

rather then
I have looked into the job market and realize I am being underpaid

You sound less confrontational.

Also who knows - maybe you will find a job that offers just as much flexibility with much more pay.

You can also try and see if you get the raise without getting other offers, and if you don't get what you want go back get offers, go back to them to renegotiate and and decide if you want to move on if you dont get what you want.
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amother
Electricblue


 

Post Thu, Sep 08 2022, 1:46 am
amother OP wrote:
electricblue - you are so right. I even know what I am missing out on because I used to work for a big international company so I got all that plus stock options.
thanks everyone so much for your replies - the question is how to diplomatically present this to my boss. and do I need to have other offers to ask for the raise.
re consultant salary - this is exactly the problem - I don't get enough hourly to be worth working as a consultant. I was trying to decide how much I can reasonably ask for.
Why do I feel so powerless to change this? My direct manager has no actual power in this regard so though I have asked her for change its useless. The entire change she has agreed to (presumably with her boss's agreement) is to begin having yearly reviews. I need to go the boss directly.
I am sure he knows he is getting off cheap with his workers in israel. but how can I point this out without being contentious.


What you describe is very typical in these setups. Not sure why so many frum american bosses think that its ok to treat their Israeli female workers this way.
Another option is to insist your boss gives you an Israeli tlush. There are many firms that specialize in axactly this - helping us based companies pay their hi-tech workers from Israel.
You might feel powerless but you really have options. You are literally living in start up nation country. There are many brilliant minds here working for companies abroad. There is no reason you should not be treated like the rest of them.
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amother
Mimosa


 

Post Thu, Sep 08 2022, 2:00 am
I agree with the opinions above that you are grossly underpaid. The setup of working for a frum boss is not likely to get you the same salary as working directly for an Israeli company in hi tech.
As much as hi tech does not often hire part-time, you never know until you try. I'm sure the right job is out there for you at a place that WILL appreciate your contributions and award you for them.
Get a current CV out there and start interviewing. Keep going until you get the right offer.
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sara_s




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Sep 08 2022, 2:24 am
PM me, I can give you detailed numbers. Also happy to help you try to network
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sara_s




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Sep 08 2022, 2:30 am
amother OP wrote:
electricblue - you are so right. I even know what I am missing out on because I used to work for a big international company so I got all that plus stock options.
thanks everyone so much for your replies - the question is how to diplomatically present this to my boss. and do I need to have other offers to ask for the raise.
re consultant salary - this is exactly the problem - I don't get enough hourly to be worth working as a consultant. I was trying to decide how much I can reasonably ask for.
Why do I feel so powerless to change this? My direct manager has no actual power in this regard so though I have asked her for change its useless. The entire change she has agreed to (presumably with her boss's agreement) is to begin having yearly reviews. I need to go the boss directly.
I am sure he knows he is getting off cheap with his workers in israel. but how can I point this out without being contentious.


I disagree about sharing competing offers. Salaries for programmers in Israel are well documented on several salary websites. (Nisha, Dialog, JobsInfo etc). Google טבלת שכר מהנדסת תוכנה
Put together a few slides on the salary for an experienced full stack developer in Israel.
Show the average salary (which is 25-35k NIS a month), add a slide with calculation of social benefits you are losing out on. (Agreed, it's at least 30%). Divide the hourly figure into hours (assume 22 working days a month *8.5 hours a day). That should be the hourly rate you are asking for, at least.
Have it all clearly outlined in a PowerPoint to share, and allow them to share with decision makers higher up.
Typically programmers who aren't getting social benefits as employees, along with the security net that provides, are freelancing/consulting and getting paid a LOT more than that. So go in feeling confident that what you are asking for is fair.
Good luck!
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DrMom




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Sep 08 2022, 2:46 am
Many of the advantages of working for a frum boss in chu"l (chaggim off, leaving early on Fridays, etc.) are neutralized by working in E"Y.

It sounds like you are being grossly underpaid.

Look around for a new job. When you have some offers you like, present your boss with the slides sara_s recommended. He can act on it or not, and you can make your choice accordingly.

Or maybe you'll find a new job that is sufficiently attractive and you'll decide to not even pressure your current boss to make a counter-offer.
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amother
PlumPink


 

Post Thu, Sep 08 2022, 6:21 am
amother Electricblue wrote:
I have a serious bone to pick with American heimeshe bosses that take advantage of talented workers in Israel. I am currently in the same situation. And I am working on leaving. They get away with a salary that is the fraction of what they would pay a local worker and they don't give the benefits israelis get. No pension, No keren hishtalmut, No paid vacation, No paid sick days, No Maternity leave, No food. Its the best of both worlds for them.
My suggestion is you put yourself out there. Put yourself out on linkedin and send your resume to companies that are hiring. When recruiters ask you what you salary range is give a number that is a bit high. When they ask you if you are flexible, say that you are if they are willing to be flexible if they are flexible with hours.
Its important to note that your english is a serious advantage in the Israeli Hi-tech world.
And just so that you are aware-
Salaries are usually around 23-33K (nis) a month. 9 hour work days. Hybrid work model. 17 paid vacation days, most companies will go beyond the letter of the law and pay for your sick days starting from the first day(by law it starts on the second day) so in total it works out to around 20 sick days, around 550 nis towards food (usually on tenbis). Yearly vacation with work, max keren hishtalmut, computer and headphones, gifts twice a year (Rosh hashana and pesach)
And obviously you will receive any benefit that Israeli law provides once you are getting a tlush.


That's exactly why they outsource to Israel - to save $. The only way you get paid equivalent is if you first work for them in the US and then you move and keep your job.
If you think they underpay you in Israel, they pay South Africans a fraction of what they pay you in Israel.
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chanchy123




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Sep 08 2022, 6:35 am
amother PlumPink wrote:
That's exactly why they outsource to Israel - to save $. The only way you get paid equivalent is if you first work for them in the US and then you move and keep your job.
If you think they underpay you in Israel, they pay South Africans a fraction of what they pay you in Israel.

But hi-tech is so well paying in Israel - why would Israelis have an insentive to work for foreign companies that under pay them and short change them of the benefits they'd get in israel?

I understand why they'd do it in other fields like health and administration, where you can offer Israelis salaries that are lower than you'd pay local Americans and they would still be lucrative enough for Israelis - but tech?
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amother
OP


 

Post Thu, Sep 08 2022, 6:36 am
part time work. its almost impossible to find here.
inertia?
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amother
Electricblue


 

Post Thu, Sep 08 2022, 6:49 am
amother PlumPink wrote:
That's exactly why they outsource to Israel - to save $. The only way you get paid equivalent is if you first work for them in the US and then you move and keep your job.
If you think they underpay you in Israel, they pay South Africans a fraction of what they pay you in Israel.


So they should at least be giving her social benefits. Israel is a socialist country. Even employees that make smaller salaries are given (by law!) Paid vacation and sick days, maternity leave and pension.
She should not have to negogiate a yearly review with her manager. She should be able to speak to her direct manager about a raise without being ignored.
American frum bosses sometimes act as if they are doing a world class chessed by allowing (fully qualified) woman in Israel to work for them.
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